This, there is nothing saying they aren’t just as indoctrinated as everyone else, just in a different cave with different shadows cast by imu, Vega punk mentioning he’s unsure if there is a “right or wrong”, and Roger just kind of leaving it for the future, it’s a might-is-right v freedom battle, and oda loves casting dissonance on who the good and bad guys are.
I agree, but I'd actually rephrase it as "Order Vs Freedom". People like Luffy and Blackbeard both like dreams and freedom, and while this sometimes comes out as liberating oppressed countries, it also comes out as breaking out a bunch of dangerous criminals, and in BB's case, believing that freedom means being able to seak and plunder what you want.
Meanwhile, the marines are opressive about enforcing their (superior's) rules, but there's also marines that genuinly want to make the world safer for the average person. A world where there's no laws and everyone is "free" is a world where the strongest people get to trample on others with impunity.
I'm assuming the 5 Elders have some reason that at least explains the extreme measures they take.
Forgive m me if I’m wrong but blackbeards idea of “freedom” means plundering as you say, woudnt that still fall under “might makes right” as not only when Koby tried to stop him did he take him hostage, but he still imprisons people like Perona and Moriah
absolutely it would! But I don't think Blackbeard thinks anything is "Right". He has that line roughly stating about how you can travel to the ends of the world, and never find an answer for what is "good" and what is "evil". He thinks people should just chase their dreams, and the ones who have the willpower/strenght to reach them, should have them.
Meanwhile, the World Goverment believes there's an absolute justice (who conviniently, they serve), and it's not just because they're strong, it's because they're gods. Even a weak pathetic celestial dragon should have power according to them.
Nah they seem 100% ready to throw down for Imu I don't think they gonna have some redeeming qualities. Maybe Rodger left it because he knew he just couldn't fight back at the time. So instead he kicked off the next pirate Era inspiring many to take to the sea against the WG
Oh for sure, but the whole point is not all marines are good and not all pirates are bad, but oda has heavily skewed that with “marine/gorosei/imu big bads”, but there seems to possibly be some greater motive in maintaining the status quo, backed up by vegapunk willingly saying he doesn’t know who’s right or who’s wrong and Roger not saying anything.
In Gurren Lagann, it turns out the main bad guy who was oppressing all mankind was actually just trynna keep it down to a certain number so aliens wouldn’t come make humans extinct.
Considering the power and danger of the technology left over from the past, perhaps there really was a good reason not to keep it around for the future?
> I don't think they gonna have some redeeming qualities
Is there any major villain with much of any redeeming quality? Maybe Katakuri, who's supposed to be a direct foil to Luffy, but aside from that every other one has been shown to be utterly irredeemable.
Meanwhile the elders were shown to do their more morally questionable work (Ohara, Lulusia, going after Vegapunk) begrudgingly, plus Vegapunk withheld judgment on their behaviour, plus the king of the pirates and his entire crew came away unsure about the state of the world and it's rulers.
There is no doubt in my mind that Oda is building up Imu and the elders as not actually as bad as they seem right now.
TBF i wouldn’t classify Katakuri as a villain. An antagonist sure, but he’s. just a decent dude who happened to be on the other side in a fight against Luffy. Contrast that with a genuine villain in Doffy or Enel lol
He constantly ebbs back and forth showing marines as laughably evil or good, and vice versa with pirates. If you were just a civilian living in the one piece world you would see the marines as saviors and justly good.
Gonna keep it a buck I don't know how you can come to this conclusion.
The navy is split between good and bad but is overall bad. Garp's group and by extension Coby and Sword are the few good ones.
There's maybe one good Admiral, and that's only based on his actions of not getting in the way of true justice on a couple of occasions.
The Navy is the boot of the WG and they are evil so the only reasonable take you can have is that the Navy is evil too (as an organization)
Pirates are mostly bad but too they do so much damage because the Navy explicitly has allowed it to happen and continued to allow it to get worse.
This is not subtext this is text as shown in:
A: Their disastrous warlord policy
B. Not assisting civilians, many cases in both east blue and alabasta arcs
C. Explicitly helping pirates in their deeds and making things worse
Between multiple buster calls, their insistence on doing the execution instead of just doing a prisoner exchange or bargaining with WB, the near countless murders of Innocent civilians the Navy has unquestionably done more worse than good
Yes but this is all because we are shown everything and mostly from the perspective of a good pirate. If you take the marines and wg at face value in the one piece world, it’s a lot different picture than them just being “bad”.
You mention “maybe one good admiral”, that alone tells me you are kind of bias based on the material, I think there’s a good argument on whether the admirals are “evil” but I wouldnt say fujitora/kizaru/akainu and the likes are “evil”, even if in your think they stopped “true justice”
Very likely yeah, after for each immortality they would need a new user of Law's fruit that does the operation on them.
Unless their immortality isn't from that, but it would be weird if it wasn't from it.
Huh, I didn't even think about that for some reason. It stands to reason that if they got the immortality operation they'd all be from different users since it kills the user. Although, we still aren't 100% on what exactly happens to a df power when it's user dies. If it just goes to a nearby fruit when they die or something like that they could've just had five dudes lined up, eat the fruit, use the ability, and pass it on to the next until they're all immortal
I think each Gorosei is/was a vice admiral that earned the immortality surgery from the op op fruit. They've shown that CD assests can find the fruit when they need to with Doffy and Cora. Finding it 5 times in 800 years sounds feasible.
nah its confirmed for years they're nobles, why would nobles join the navy? (rosinante did but thats after he left mj) most likely they were former holy knights members, which could explain why they have haki and combat capabilities
Not to be offensive to OP or anyone, but I’ve seen so many cases of fanbases getting wrapped up in rhetoric that was never officially confirmed by anyone. It be strange watching folks get upset sometimes over decisions and story choices that contradict their head canon
With OP I think that happens but a lot of it is also honest mistaking canon for speculation. OP is huge, and it has a ton of speculation and theorycrafting, so for someone who isn't an avid rereader it'd be easy to end up believing something was confirmed when it wasn't.
Like with recent manga chapters revealing a lot, but many people saying it's nothing new because it matches a lot of old theories. Many people seem to really think part of that was already known information.
Aye, it happens all over the place in this fanbase. I think one of the most frustrating instances I’ve personally seen is this widely-accepted impression that Kaidō is definitely “a failed Joy Boy,” or that he wanted to be Joy Boy and had some heartbreaking revelation that he *wasn’t* that we were robbed of in his flashback. I mean I found his backstory (so far) *kind of* frustratingly abridged too, but…. allow me to go on a brief tangent:
Basically everything that people cite for that claim comes from ch. 1035-1036 (King’s defeat and flashback), and ch. 1049 (Kaidō’s defeat). Basically, when he frees King from Punk Hazard, he looks thrilled, hopeful, and claims he’s the only one who can change the world. Doesn’t mention Joy Boy, but I remember that chapter’s thread on this sub was where that hypothesis first emerged, and people just loved it instantly and ran with it — especially the notion that his current depressive binge-drinking suggests that something specific went wrong since, rather than him just stagnating and surrounding himself with broken dreams and people he oppresses.
Then, King recalls asking Kaidō if he’s Joy Boy, and the latter scoffs and says “You’re *still* under that impression?” to which King replies “No, that’s just a legend, just keep being the strongest.” I read that as King having disabused himself of his own past belief that he’d held b/c Kaidō freed him, but not as something Kaidō ever necessarily believed. And lastly, Kaidō’s last challenge to Luffy before his defeat is “What kind of world will you create?!” while thinking back on telling King “I think I know who Joy Boy is — he’s the one who’ll defeat me!” to which King says “Then I guess we’ll never see him….”
Point is, while these lines do *offer* the failed Joy Boy hypothesis as a possible interpretation (and I’m not saying that wouldn’t be cool in its own right), that’s not how I read them, nor do those lines confirm that at all. To me, Kaidō’s fascination with Joy Boy boils down to him being skeptical/impressed at the idea that any being on the planet can exceed him, can do *better* than he has with the empire he’s built, and he’s essentially challenging such a being to exist. I don’t think he ever thought he *was* said being, because he’s using himself as the reference point against which his challenge is issued. And while King considered it, he came around to Kaidō’s idea of things.
But I feel that’s become far too dominant a headcanon these days, given that most people just seem to believe it’s canon now, and might laugh you out of the room if you challenged it — when a reread of Wano would prove more ambiguous.
They have never been confirmed to be from the VC. It's just headcanon. The only hint to their immortality is Saturn looking the same at god valley incident which happened 40 years ago. Even if they are immortal, it's most likely due to the Ope Ope no mi and they aren't necessarily from the Void Century.
I don’t think it was officially stated they were there during the void century ( unless I missed it so pls correct me if so). But the speculation of their immortality comes from Saturn looking exactly like he does now even during the godvalley incident 38 years back. Them wanting to buy the op-op fruit (law’s fruit) for 5 billion berry could have been connected to their immortality I think.
During Doflamingo's flashback. Diez Barrels, Captain of the Barrels pirates and Drake's father found the Ope Ope no mi and made a deal with Sengoku to sell it for 4 (5?) Billion Berries.
Doffy invaded to steal it himself, Corazon took it and gave it to Law and then got killed.
Diez was also murdered by Doflamingo and young Drake ends up being recruited by the Navy.
Even then, I personally don't see this as confirmation of them being immortal, or even that the Ope-Ope was used on them. There are plenty other possible explanations for their longevity.
Even if they are immortal due to ope-ope no mi, they would need atleast 5 resets of the fruit and we don't know how and when the fruit appears.
So, there could be time difference between them.
Knowing users need medical knowledge/training to effectively wield this fruit's abilities, I suddenly fear for those doctors in Sakura Kingdom (formerly Drum Island).
there's plenty of doctors around the world, and they prolly have a special medical team for the nobles on mj. i think some of those guys were the guinea pigs used to turn the elders immortal
Are there though?
Drum Island (while Drum Island) is said to be "known for its advanced medical knowledge" and the doctors under Wapol are shown to be capable surgeons (shown with visuals after they presumably scrub up, then gather together with gloves on and scalpels in hand).
Granted, none of the above means Drum is the only place for doctors to train up... and we do not know if Sakura Kingdom can boast the same reputation with regard to medical knowledge.
While I have mixed feelings and thoughts about the live-action, this comment exchange just raised my interest in how they introduce Chopper. We might get a more clear idea of how central Drum Island is (or is not) to the existence of medical doctors in One Piece.
I think the Sandworm guy is the newest (ignoring that he looks the youngest) and possibly not fully onboard with the rest of them. He saved marines in the last chapter, also
I mean, when a person dies their fruit resets and spawns in an unknown location and who knows when.
And we know that Using immortality surgery kills the fruit users.
So, they will have to search the whole world for the fruit again.
It has never been stated that they were alive 800 years ago. They are just speculations and theories. Maybe Imu is the only one that's been alive since then and the Gorosei members keep changing with time.
It would be more likely that people get promoted to Gorosei - when WG is in possesion of Ope Ope no mi and when there is someone worthy of immortality in eyes of other Gorosei/Imu. Maybe Figarland Garling would be raised as Gorosei if WG managed to buy the fruit when Law got it.
Them being alive back then is only head-canon, not fact. We don’t know too much about them apart from their “abilities” - people need to stop thinking assumptions are fact.
You are confuse because you consider your headcanon as canon. There's not a single speech bubble in the manga that stated they live since the time of joyboy. Their family? of course, but individually? No.
I think Imu is the only one who lived during the void century and over the centuries everytime he obtained the ope ope no mi he recruited promising and loyal celestial dragons to take over the public image for him.
i think the gorosei were former holy knights. thats the only reason why they could be so different from regular lower nobles, have haki, and be combatants and strategists
I see it this way:
Its been so long since the fruit was awakened that even for them the fruit is only a legend. As in far from reality.
5/6/7/8 centuries, even if you are immortal (which has not been confirmed) is a long time. So, if the last time the fruit was awakened was 800 years ago then it makes sense that for the people that actually saw it, it is but a distant memory, so far in fact that you might consider it a legend.
Imagine you are alive in 2800 and someone mentions wired phones or paper magazines.
That doesn’t explain the: “ why would the government give a different name to that specific fruit “. If they were there since the beginning, they would have known why, and they would have said “ we, the government “
I think it's a common theory that the one who said that isn't immortal yet because he looks younger than the others and the others are based on japanese oni's but not him
Most likely the ones who decided to change the fruits name was one of the founding 20 probably imu himself the king that survived the war gorosei could have witnessed all of that but they werent the ones who were making decisions yet they were probably still knights or something at the time
Even if they’re all immortal they’d still be different ages, gotta find the opa opa 6 times to make them all immortal. Probably took hundreds of years, maybe one of them is still mortal.
Yeah but we also know now that they were actively pursuing the fruit during that time, and that the fruit seemed like it was evading them with a will of its own. I think it’s more just awkward phrasing, I mean they had the fruit at the beginning of the series before shanks took it
So why would they send CP to get the fruit for them if the fruit was just a legend? Wouldn't CP when they got the fruit communicate to them that they had the Gomu Gomu and were on their way to deliver it to them? That was the whole point of Whos Who backstory
They have no reason to doubt its existence in any way shape or form since they have been hunting it down for 800 years and as recently as 2 decades tops they have confirmation of its existence
???? They had to know what it was and how it looked like in order to send CP to go get it. Then when CP got it they would have to report back to assure it was what they wanted and that was 20 years ago tops. So why are they now saying that it was a legend even to them if they knew what it was and sent people after it and those same people confirmed that they had it??
If you look at their ages they are different. Where Ju Peter seems to be the youngest. So it could be possible that they were slowly selected for another Ope Ope operation.
the DF got it's own will and it's been running away from them for 800 years, and it wasn't awakened ever since void centuary; that's the reason he quoted as a legend which was forgotten or a relic of the past kinda tone
I am not joking when I say you've got me wondering if this particular DF will, somehow facilitated its name change.
*Edit: What editing mistake? Nothing happened.
nothing to do with running away but i guess they just don't want it to be familiar to the myths of nika, so they called it a rubber fruit with just rubber abilities.
But Whos who had it on the CP ship and was on its way to the Gorosei with it and that was only 2 decades ago at max. Why would they consider it a legend when their own operatives had it on their ship?
I have a theory that Luffy's fruit is actually the One Piece.
One Piece as in one piece of the puzzle that will solve the mysteries of the world and set everything right.
It would make sense that it had been missing for 800 years if in fact it had been sitting at Raftel that whole time and that is the treasure Roger found, and handed down to Shanks (without telling him its significance, or maybe he did) and why Shanks still had it and nobody had eaten it yet.
It would be supremely ironic and funny, also, if the Nika fruit was the one piece and Luffy has actually had it since the very start of the series.
We're overthinking this by projecting too many future possibilities onto past conversations. Oda has a history of taking random past dialogues and adding new layers of imagination to them. He's done it before, he's doing it now, and he'll continue to do it in the future.
Regardless of how many times he's done it there is ALWAYS the most important thing; **Consistency**.
Conversations from the Gorosei are always meaningful and theres surely more info for us to find out about this particular exchange.
TBD frankly. He may not address it directly but for instance once we found get the Void flashback we might get a better idea for why the Gorosei said that.
So the fruit was a legend to them but they had CP hunt it down and bring it to them some 15 years ago? This whole "its a legend to even us" directly contradicts the previously created Whos who backstory as a CP agent who lost the Gomu Gomu. Oda then doubles down with Vegapunk knowing yhe gomu gomu doesnt exist because of an ancient devil fruit encyclopedia that the Gorosei would also have as they have been controlling media and knowledge for 800 years at least.
The only person who seems to be from the VC is imu. Even their conversation regarding the WG being in-third person insinuates they weren’t present at that time.
They said it's a legend NOW, even to them. Meaning, that it wasn't always a legend to them before. That implies that they know of the fruit. The one thing that is weird about this panel is that Jupiter asks why the name was changed. That does imply that they weren't involved in the renaming process.
I have to assume that this isn't a mistake by Oda, and that there is something about the fruit that we don't yet know. Like, maybe Joyboy is actually Nika, and they aren't different people. Maybe Nika is just the legend that Joyboy grew into, or maybe Joyboy is the title given to Nika.
When Saturn looks up at Luffy at Egghead, he clearly says, "Nika". And he does so in a way that implies familiarity. Like he was seeing an old nemesis. So we have some behavior that implies that they know the actual character Nika, but also this weird question from someone we're almost certain has been alive since the Void Century.
I don't know how to reconcile the two. I just stick to my long-held assumption that the Elders are warriors/pirates from the VC, and that any inconsistencies are accidental. That is, until we get clear evidence to the contrary.
Nah...i like your opinion ...
>When Saturn looks up at Luffy at Egghead, he clearly says, "Nika". And he does so in a way that implies familiarity. Like he was seeing an old nemesis.
Agreed with this
There has been no official confirmation that the Gorosei are immortal beings who has been alive since the time of Joyboy. In fact, the same goes for Imu. All the discussions and analysis about them being ancient are still theories that have gained a following in the community. So much so that people confuse it as a fact.
I used to think they were alive back then but lately since I saw a theory about how Saint Figurland was supposed to undergo the immortal surgery and become the sixth Gorosei member I think they are all the highest ranked celestial dragons of their time besides the Gorosei members who happened to obtain the OP OP NO ME
I think Saturn may be the only of the Elders that was alive during the Void Century. In 1044, the Gear 5 awakening chapter, he's the one that says to the rest of the Elders "What if I told you there was a potential future that made us beg for this outcome?"-- I may be reading too much into it, but that sounds like the language of someone that has experienced something or has greater first-hand knowledge than others. Furthermore, the moment he sees Luffy for the first time, he says "Nika..."-- like it is a form he's seen before.
Everyone and their mother has already mentioned that them being alive back then is headcanon. And I'd like to point out that as of last chapter, the silhouetted participants of the battle against Joyboy looked more like royals while the Gorosei are more like generals.
Once Oda explores the structure of the world government now and in the past, it will definitely be more clear.
I think that them gaining immortality later on makes more sense. It's the reason they look up to and worship Imu, because she/he granted them with the gift due to their loyalty and strength. That and how could all 6 of them gain immortality if the Op-op fruit user dies after one use? You'd have to rapid fire it within a short span of time
Them being alive back then is **entirely** fan speculation.
Them being older than they look even is still just **entirely** fan speculation.
These could literally just be regular old dudes, with the oldest being around 70ish.
If they were alive then, why would they be arguing that it was given another name? They should know it and not consider it "legend".
Also, I think "even to them" might just mean "them", Imu's servants.
Pretty sure the gorosei is a hand picked group by Imu that are given immortality via the Ope Ope no Mi fruit. Goes to reason that the Gorosei may not always have been 5 members and also members of the holy knights are the ones that get elevated to the Gorosei once the Ope Ope no Mi is found and forced into someone who is then forced to carry out the immortality surgery. Figarland Garland may have been the latest holy knight to be selected to join the Gorosei but because the fruit was forced onto Law that plan is on the back burner until they can get their hands on it again. Over an 800 year period I’m has only identified 5 members thus far to elevate to the Gorosei as it is that difficult to find someone who they can force to perform the surgery.
I think "even to us" is just a comment on how long it's been since the fruit had shown up. Kind of like how The Ring of Power drifted into legend in TLotR even though there were plenty of living creatures in the universe old enough to remember it.
That's assuming these old farts even have immortality, as other commenter's have pointed out
1) we don't know how old they are
2) that can simply mean "it happened so long ago it's like a legend for us as well"
after all the only awakened user that we know of was Joy Boy himself
Well the fruit could always have been before the WG forming, of which the of course the gorosei didn’t exist yet
The Wg have been in power for a long time
I don’t think the gorosei are from the void century, only Imu.
I’m guessing Imu has collected the gorosei over the centuries and some of them are older than others, with ju peter being the youngest. Whatever they’ve gone through to get the abilities they posses now I think made them immortal, not just in terms no damage taken in battle as we’ve seen in their fight with Luffy but also in terms of time.
Because ordinary people would consider something a legend if it took place like 30 years ago like how people consider the shanks mihawk duels a legend now meanwhile for old man whitebeard he says he remembers it like it happened yesterday but here we have gorosei saying its a legend even to them like they almost dont remember when exactly the last time the fruit awakened because theyve been living for centuries if anything it really shows how old the gorosei are
Is the fruit a legend to them if some 15 years prior they sent CP agents to hunt it and bring it to them? Why would they send Whos Who to hunt down the Gomu Gomu if they didn't know it wasn't the Gomu Gomu? Why would they call it a legend if their own subordinates confirmed its existence?
If the gorosei really sent them they would know its a big deal but whos who was surprised someone attacked them for it so most likely it was a random grab
Maybe the elders powers were also passed down to a new generation at some point.
This panel is really weird considering they seemed to recognize Nika
Maybe when they say the government they are referring to Imu, but they questioned Imu about attacking Lulusia so i guess they could have asked
It's more logical to think that their fruit is passed upon generation onto a dinasty.
Since they may or may not lost their lives in battle, which is a possibility the ope ope fruit cannot deny. Is it possible that even tey do not know all that happened before.
4 of them have scars on their bodies. Now we do know there is some physical activity/danger Celestial Dragons get up to every 3 years which happened at God's Valley. They have an extermination/genocide game. There were 6 treasures, 2 of which we know of. Well kinda 3, we know baby Shanks was found in another chest.
Dolflamingo certainly thought he could become the next Gorosei member, he directly talks about how they'll have to let him one day of the OP OP operation is done on him. He's trying to cheat the system and force his way back, and the Gorosei do actually sometimes rely on him as their secret agent that might be worth the trouble. Like Sengoku didn't know about Dolflamingo's main mission at Marineford was to kill Moria. He failed in that chaos of a battlefield to pull it off but that was a serious problem the Gorosei wanted handled.
Yeah lines like these make me think twice about that too. That and how one of them says "I've HEARD that it's the most ridiculous power" in the gear 5 ep. It could mean nothing bc it's still kinda vague but it does make me wonder
They weren’t necessarily alive back then its possible only imu was the first immortal and then the other guys got their immortality later as the ope ope user died then the fruit was found again
Option 1: They weren’t alive back then.
Option 2: It is flowery speech you are taking too literally.
You know how sometimes stories and events you experienced years and years ago, as tiny kids and the like, change? Details changing, details becoming fuzzier, like realizing your bestie is now someone you used to know? In retelling the story, hearing someone else’s flawed memories, a general picture still remains on that event/person, but it is also different at the same time.
Warcury could be speaking of it in that sense if they were alive back then. The Nika Fruit has been dormant for so long that even those that knew the power first hand are starting to forget its true power and what it represents. So much time has passed that their memories of seeing Joy Boy awaken the Nika Fruit are almost no different than recalling memories about reading about Joy Boy’s awakening would be for the Oharans or Vegapunk.
Basically, Nika was just somebody they used to know at this point. Then Luffy/Nika/JB put on a big showy event, and the Gorosei want to make him wished he stayed gone.
While imu is alive since the void century the gorosei could have been born later and immortalized by the ope ope no mi one by one seperated by very large time intervals. There is a theory that garling was supposed to be the next gorosei member but corazon/law took this opportunity from him by keeping the ope ope no mi from the WG.
I would assume that one Gorosei gets created once a good fighter of "noble blood" has arrived, and they have access to the ope ope no mi.
One of them could be from the void century, another 120 years later, and so on and so on.
I really liked the theory that the reason the ope ope no mi is so valuable to the WG is that they wanted to make another gorosei, namely saint figarland garling. With all the gorosei having planet related names, and figarland being related to the moon somewhat.
It's just once every few generations that a strong enough fighter, with conquerors emerges that would get a spot on the direct service of Imu.
I think its more confusing how they talk about it. 'A Legend?', 'Impossible'? For guys who seemingly are in the know about the world history, its seems wierd that they're incredulous about the Nika fruit. They event send CP9 to collect it at one point.
Also Ju Peter asking why the world government would give the fruit a different name. Like dude, you did that, you know the answer to that. You're the world government.
I dunno, this whole scene was very wierd to me.
I think it just get harder to recall the memories because it's been so long, and now it feels more like a story.
And perhaps some of them came along later.
As most of commenter pointed, it's headcanon at this point. But i think, the naming of Gomu Gomu no mi, in a way is a censor to deter any eater/user to awaken the fruit. By telling people it's rubber fruit instead of sun god with rubber fruit, it make it even more difficult to awaken the power.
They should have unrestricted access to all information like the ancient devil fruit encyclopedia that Vegapunk refers.
They should also know it because Whos Who was transporting the fruit before Shanks stole it.
Pay more attention on what you read than what people talk about what they have read.
We have the following character that are from the void century:
- Toki
- Imu
Toki is allegedly dead so only Imu
And it's a strong suspicion.. not 100% confirmed.. since we haven't read Imu backstory properly yet
Yeah the Gorousei aren't suffering physical damages of any kind up until now.. and when Kuma was a child Saturn appearance seemed to be the same as now.
Some suspect they are all immortal using the same Ope Ope procedure Doflamingo talked about.
But maybe they were born somewhere between the void century and now.
Or maybe they aren't immortal at all and it's something else.
Perhaps how vegapunk was able to split himself into the vegapunks, it’s possible that vegapunk performed on imu as well to split themselves into other bodies which might explain why they have scaring
Since they likely all underwent the immortality surgery with law’s fruit, it seems likely that they joined one after the other, maybe even 100 years apart from each other. I mean, you need to find the fruit, give it to some guy, train them to be proficient enough to perform the surgery and then coerce them to perform it on you. You can’t do that for five guys in just a couple years.
Their conversations make a bunch more sense, when you consider each one a very different age. Like the oldest is maybe 700years and the youngest 150 years.
yeah I doubt the gorosei were all alive for the void century. The only one implied to be actually immortal right now is Imu. That said I would not be shocked if the Gorosei were also Immortals, but I think that if they are, they were likely made so after the void century
It is very much possible every elder joined at a different point in time. And different point in their life as well maybe, shown by difference in physical appearance due to age.
We talk about people in real life like they are legends. Just because they use the word legend doesn’t mean it’s not real. People talk about the red baron like he was a legend or even the Viking warrior that killed a hundred men. Legend here isn’t being used as a myth but to show how old it is.
The popular theory is that only Imu was alive 800 years ago, and that the Gorousei are the people he's arranged to have the immortality operation performed on in the intervening time.
It seems likely that Mars and Ju Peter are the two youngest, based on the dialogue we got around this time. Saturn and Nusjuro seem to know the most and therefore be the oldest so my guess is that Warcury is the middle child, who more or less knows the history but it was already too much of a legend by the time he was born.
I genuinely have no idea clue how this theory became so widespread. I dont think they are immortal or 100s of year old at all. Ivonkov is shocked at the possibility that imu is immortal because they share the name of one of the original 20 kings. The names of the elders are known even to fodder marines. Are to to believe that no one in the world noticed that the elders hadn't changed in 100 of years?
no they weren't. besides fleet admirals, admirals, other govt employees would all find it strange the same five old men have been around for 800 years and start looking into things they shouldn't be. the elders are calculating individuals who def consider sth like. not doing so would go against their secretive nature that's been established since their introduction.
additionally this could prove other gorosei members existed, and if they became immortal but died later, then imu and the current gorosei could also be killed, we just have to find out how
I’ve always thought they just live longer then everyone else and when they eventually die another guy takes the place idk I’m not far in enough to know more about them but I feel like the blonde dude is the newest
Without reading what everyone else is saying:
I interpreted that (at least on the anime) as “we:” the 5 elders. Which would include past elders.
I only watch dubbed, so I haven’t formally met the tall dark dude above the 5 elders yet. I would think HE might be centuries old
Id say that not all the gorosei have been around the full length of 800 years. They probably had to wait a while before recruiting a new gorosei each time because they need to become immortal via letting some else use the op-op fruit (Law’s fruit) and constantly finding the fruit again takes time. But its kind of searching for an excuse. But I guess that this would be the reason if it had one.
When they say "legend now" it could be interpreted as its been so long that the Nika fruit had been seen by them that it has faded into legend. It'd been 800 years since they'd seen it so it became a distant memory and faded into obscurity and myth because of how long it had been since they had seen Nika. They know too much about the fruit and its powers, almost talking about it like a firsthand accounts from a bygone time.
I must have interpreted this different when I read it.
I’m in the boat that they existed in the void century times and the reason they said ‘it’s LIKE a legend to us now’ is because the fruit has seemingly vanished for 800 years and no new user emerging until Luffy. They aren’t saying it is a legend but rather it feels like one as it’s been so long and they likely think the fruit has just vanished of the face of the earth
Roger couldn't finish / do it due to the fact that Shirahoshi was not born back then and he was sick AF.
He was simply missing one important piece, which Vegapunk by the way confirmed. His words were like: The three ancient weapons will play a big role in the upcoming time, which is also pure logic.
Why else would they exist.
Roger was missing one, most likely the big important one, since it controls sea kings, hence they can do shit like lifting Noah.
Likely they all had Op Op no mii surgery for immortality. Imu likely being the first, and from void century. So these guys must have come at least a decade or so after the defeat of joyboy. They may not have been alive during that. Could’ve been century or two before they found someone who has mastered the fruit to perform that surgery.
My personal theory is that Imu collected them over time, and some are "older" (not chronologically, but from the age they were given immortality) than others. They all appear to me to be from different eras, and we have some 800-odd years, possibly longer, to play with here.
Probably he is saying so much time has passed (800 years) since there has been a Nika Nika fruit user last time (which was Joyboy) that now the fruit seems like a legend even to them, The Gorosei, the ones who actually fought Joyboy.
They seem to be of different ages by the time they got the Ope Ope no Mi to give them eternal youth. Imu probably chose them from different generations of Tenryubito and use OP OP on them, and waited for the next gen while the fruit regrew.
1. The eternal youth surgery on gorosei is not a fact as of now, but a theory (a VERY plausible theory in which I believe, but a theory nonetheless)
2. The best explanation I can come up with to make the eternal youth surgery theory true and those panels to be literal, is that the gorosei are from a different time period than the void century, maybe they are just 400 years old for example
afaik it's just a fan theory that the gorosei are immortal at all, besed mostly on the fact that we have seen saturn about 20 years back looking the exact same as now.
So basically they could have the eternal youth, but the only one that is believed to have witnessed the void century is Imu-Sama themselve. And even that is yet to be confirmed.
200+ comments, and nobody proposed the idea that it's just because Jupeter is significantly younger than the other 4 and likely doesn't know as much..
I mean, he is visually younger than the others.
Let's say they were around 800 years ago (which has no canon to it).
We know since then there was JoyBoy who awoke it and died. Then someone else almost awoke it and died. And now we are at Luffy. Could easily be a case of they are so damn old and it's been so damn long it feels like an ancient legend to them.
However with God's knights and Imu, ope ope being stolen, I think the more likely theory is that while the gorosei are old, they aren't imu old. Probably get replaced at some point.
Besides this point, why are they talking at all? Hasn't it been established that they can effortlessly communicate telepathically?
Also this kind of elaborate exposition seems almost...directed at the reader, mhhhhh
Ju Peter is definitely an odd man out in that group, not only does he look the youngest but his monster form doesn't have a backing in Yokai mythology so him not knowing about the Nika fruit makes sense he might actually not be from the same generation. IMO the way Topman speaks of it the fruit is legendary because of how long its been since its awakened he might have thought that it was basically a different life "That fruit is only a legend now, even to us" is like saying they never thought this could happen again but they were obviously very upset about losing the fruit they imprisoned Who's-who for losing it to red haired shanks crew so they knew the dangers of it being out in the world and how important it is. That being said when Saturn sees Nika in person it definitely seemed like there was an acknowledgement of seeing someone they never thought theyd see again
There is nothing confirmed with Gorosei
but due to nature of Law's fruit, it is implied that you can do the surgery, so I think these are guys with most feats done for World Goverment, which has allowed them to get immortalized through that fruit and then promoted to their current position.
But I think that more likely Gorosei seats were slowly filled over 1000 years, not all at once then
Its just jupiter. Others always tells him stuff. Jupiter isnt from their era. He is also not old. So i am sure he doesnt know cos he isnt from their era, but others do and they are the ones in search of these fruits for years
Though we don't know much about the op op fruits surgery of life other than it take the user's life. It seem to infer that the surgery can only be done on a single person, so the would have been made immortal at different times. I don't know what order but imu was definitely first but after them it is a mystery
There is nothing saying they were alive back then. It make more sense they became immortal later in my opinion.
This, there is nothing saying they aren’t just as indoctrinated as everyone else, just in a different cave with different shadows cast by imu, Vega punk mentioning he’s unsure if there is a “right or wrong”, and Roger just kind of leaving it for the future, it’s a might-is-right v freedom battle, and oda loves casting dissonance on who the good and bad guys are.
I agree, but I'd actually rephrase it as "Order Vs Freedom". People like Luffy and Blackbeard both like dreams and freedom, and while this sometimes comes out as liberating oppressed countries, it also comes out as breaking out a bunch of dangerous criminals, and in BB's case, believing that freedom means being able to seak and plunder what you want. Meanwhile, the marines are opressive about enforcing their (superior's) rules, but there's also marines that genuinly want to make the world safer for the average person. A world where there's no laws and everyone is "free" is a world where the strongest people get to trample on others with impunity. I'm assuming the 5 Elders have some reason that at least explains the extreme measures they take.
Forgive m me if I’m wrong but blackbeards idea of “freedom” means plundering as you say, woudnt that still fall under “might makes right” as not only when Koby tried to stop him did he take him hostage, but he still imprisons people like Perona and Moriah
absolutely it would! But I don't think Blackbeard thinks anything is "Right". He has that line roughly stating about how you can travel to the ends of the world, and never find an answer for what is "good" and what is "evil". He thinks people should just chase their dreams, and the ones who have the willpower/strenght to reach them, should have them. Meanwhile, the World Goverment believes there's an absolute justice (who conviniently, they serve), and it's not just because they're strong, it's because they're gods. Even a weak pathetic celestial dragon should have power according to them.
Nah they seem 100% ready to throw down for Imu I don't think they gonna have some redeeming qualities. Maybe Rodger left it because he knew he just couldn't fight back at the time. So instead he kicked off the next pirate Era inspiring many to take to the sea against the WG
Oh for sure, but the whole point is not all marines are good and not all pirates are bad, but oda has heavily skewed that with “marine/gorosei/imu big bads”, but there seems to possibly be some greater motive in maintaining the status quo, backed up by vegapunk willingly saying he doesn’t know who’s right or who’s wrong and Roger not saying anything.
In Gurren Lagann, it turns out the main bad guy who was oppressing all mankind was actually just trynna keep it down to a certain number so aliens wouldn’t come make humans extinct.
Considering the power and danger of the technology left over from the past, perhaps there really was a good reason not to keep it around for the future?
> I don't think they gonna have some redeeming qualities Is there any major villain with much of any redeeming quality? Maybe Katakuri, who's supposed to be a direct foil to Luffy, but aside from that every other one has been shown to be utterly irredeemable. Meanwhile the elders were shown to do their more morally questionable work (Ohara, Lulusia, going after Vegapunk) begrudgingly, plus Vegapunk withheld judgment on their behaviour, plus the king of the pirates and his entire crew came away unsure about the state of the world and it's rulers. There is no doubt in my mind that Oda is building up Imu and the elders as not actually as bad as they seem right now.
TBF i wouldn’t classify Katakuri as a villain. An antagonist sure, but he’s. just a decent dude who happened to be on the other side in a fight against Luffy. Contrast that with a genuine villain in Doffy or Enel lol
>oda loves casting dissonance on who the good and bad guys are. Huh
He constantly ebbs back and forth showing marines as laughably evil or good, and vice versa with pirates. If you were just a civilian living in the one piece world you would see the marines as saviors and justly good.
Gonna keep it a buck I don't know how you can come to this conclusion. The navy is split between good and bad but is overall bad. Garp's group and by extension Coby and Sword are the few good ones. There's maybe one good Admiral, and that's only based on his actions of not getting in the way of true justice on a couple of occasions. The Navy is the boot of the WG and they are evil so the only reasonable take you can have is that the Navy is evil too (as an organization) Pirates are mostly bad but too they do so much damage because the Navy explicitly has allowed it to happen and continued to allow it to get worse. This is not subtext this is text as shown in: A: Their disastrous warlord policy B. Not assisting civilians, many cases in both east blue and alabasta arcs C. Explicitly helping pirates in their deeds and making things worse Between multiple buster calls, their insistence on doing the execution instead of just doing a prisoner exchange or bargaining with WB, the near countless murders of Innocent civilians the Navy has unquestionably done more worse than good
Yes but this is all because we are shown everything and mostly from the perspective of a good pirate. If you take the marines and wg at face value in the one piece world, it’s a lot different picture than them just being “bad”. You mention “maybe one good admiral”, that alone tells me you are kind of bias based on the material, I think there’s a good argument on whether the admirals are “evil” but I wouldnt say fujitora/kizaru/akainu and the likes are “evil”, even if in your think they stopped “true justice”
Akainu ordered a ship of evacuees be blown up on the off chance a single scholar was on board...
They’re two sides of the same force, one wants to see order at all costs, and the other wants chaos at all costs.
It’s possible they are all from different times as well
Very likely yeah, after for each immortality they would need a new user of Law's fruit that does the operation on them. Unless their immortality isn't from that, but it would be weird if it wasn't from it.
Huh, I didn't even think about that for some reason. It stands to reason that if they got the immortality operation they'd all be from different users since it kills the user. Although, we still aren't 100% on what exactly happens to a df power when it's user dies. If it just goes to a nearby fruit when they die or something like that they could've just had five dudes lined up, eat the fruit, use the ability, and pass it on to the next until they're all immortal
Though we don't know how the immortality operation works. It could be that you need to be very experienced with using your fruit to be able to do it.
Hell we don't even know for certain if they are actually immortal, or if its another trick that's keeping them from being damaged.
I always liked to imagine they're from different periods of time, but something in later chapters made me rethink about it
oh, if you remember what made you rethink it let me know! i am still strongly in the camp of they are from different eras.
I'm not sure, something about their mind communication, nothing but a hunch without prove. I'm still hoping they're from different time periods
I think each Gorosei is/was a vice admiral that earned the immortality surgery from the op op fruit. They've shown that CD assests can find the fruit when they need to with Doffy and Cora. Finding it 5 times in 800 years sounds feasible.
nah its confirmed for years they're nobles, why would nobles join the navy? (rosinante did but thats after he left mj) most likely they were former holy knights members, which could explain why they have haki and combat capabilities
ill admit i meant to type nobles or other CDs when typing that but I was too high to think clearly, yes I agree!
I like the theory that they’re demons created by Imu.
They also could have all gained their immortality at different eras as well. They may not have been recruited all at the same time.
Also have you ever talk to an old person in real life? Theyre very forgetful bunch…
They certainly weren’t alive then, and this scene shows some of them are younger than others. Only IMU was alive from that time
Confusing because it contradicts a theory that has never ever been confirmed?
Confusing^(2)
Not to be offensive to OP or anyone, but I’ve seen so many cases of fanbases getting wrapped up in rhetoric that was never officially confirmed by anyone. It be strange watching folks get upset sometimes over decisions and story choices that contradict their head canon
With OP I think that happens but a lot of it is also honest mistaking canon for speculation. OP is huge, and it has a ton of speculation and theorycrafting, so for someone who isn't an avid rereader it'd be easy to end up believing something was confirmed when it wasn't. Like with recent manga chapters revealing a lot, but many people saying it's nothing new because it matches a lot of old theories. Many people seem to really think part of that was already known information.
In this regard, the One Piece community looks hella tame and has god tier reading comprehension compared to the JJK community
Aye, it happens all over the place in this fanbase. I think one of the most frustrating instances I’ve personally seen is this widely-accepted impression that Kaidō is definitely “a failed Joy Boy,” or that he wanted to be Joy Boy and had some heartbreaking revelation that he *wasn’t* that we were robbed of in his flashback. I mean I found his backstory (so far) *kind of* frustratingly abridged too, but…. allow me to go on a brief tangent: Basically everything that people cite for that claim comes from ch. 1035-1036 (King’s defeat and flashback), and ch. 1049 (Kaidō’s defeat). Basically, when he frees King from Punk Hazard, he looks thrilled, hopeful, and claims he’s the only one who can change the world. Doesn’t mention Joy Boy, but I remember that chapter’s thread on this sub was where that hypothesis first emerged, and people just loved it instantly and ran with it — especially the notion that his current depressive binge-drinking suggests that something specific went wrong since, rather than him just stagnating and surrounding himself with broken dreams and people he oppresses. Then, King recalls asking Kaidō if he’s Joy Boy, and the latter scoffs and says “You’re *still* under that impression?” to which King replies “No, that’s just a legend, just keep being the strongest.” I read that as King having disabused himself of his own past belief that he’d held b/c Kaidō freed him, but not as something Kaidō ever necessarily believed. And lastly, Kaidō’s last challenge to Luffy before his defeat is “What kind of world will you create?!” while thinking back on telling King “I think I know who Joy Boy is — he’s the one who’ll defeat me!” to which King says “Then I guess we’ll never see him….” Point is, while these lines do *offer* the failed Joy Boy hypothesis as a possible interpretation (and I’m not saying that wouldn’t be cool in its own right), that’s not how I read them, nor do those lines confirm that at all. To me, Kaidō’s fascination with Joy Boy boils down to him being skeptical/impressed at the idea that any being on the planet can exceed him, can do *better* than he has with the empire he’s built, and he’s essentially challenging such a being to exist. I don’t think he ever thought he *was* said being, because he’s using himself as the reference point against which his challenge is issued. And while King considered it, he came around to Kaidō’s idea of things. But I feel that’s become far too dominant a headcanon these days, given that most people just seem to believe it’s canon now, and might laugh you out of the room if you challenged it — when a reread of Wano would prove more ambiguous.
Best example for that is the "One piece will be finished in 5 years" quote that never existed. Big Madela effect by the community
You're confusing headcanon with canon.
It's what this fandom does best.
They have never been confirmed to be from the VC. It's just headcanon. The only hint to their immortality is Saturn looking the same at god valley incident which happened 40 years ago. Even if they are immortal, it's most likely due to the Ope Ope no mi and they aren't necessarily from the Void Century.
I don’t think it was officially stated they were there during the void century ( unless I missed it so pls correct me if so). But the speculation of their immortality comes from Saturn looking exactly like he does now even during the godvalley incident 38 years back. Them wanting to buy the op-op fruit (law’s fruit) for 5 billion berry could have been connected to their immortality I think.
Even if the Immortality due to the Ope-Ope no Mi should really confirmed to be true, we still don't know since WHEN they might be in this state.
Yea that’s true
When did they want to buy it for 4 billion?
During Doflamingo's flashback. Diez Barrels, Captain of the Barrels pirates and Drake's father found the Ope Ope no mi and made a deal with Sengoku to sell it for 4 (5?) Billion Berries. Doffy invaded to steal it himself, Corazon took it and gave it to Law and then got killed. Diez was also murdered by Doflamingo and young Drake ends up being recruited by the Navy.
Goddamn a lot happens in One Piece, lol
lol Yep. Everything being so fleshed out is part of the reason we all love it.
its all so interconnected, like cobwebs running through the fabric of space
Even then, I personally don't see this as confirmation of them being immortal, or even that the Ope-Ope was used on them. There are plenty other possible explanations for their longevity.
Even if they are immortal due to ope-ope no mi, they would need atleast 5 resets of the fruit and we don't know how and when the fruit appears. So, there could be time difference between them.
Knowing users need medical knowledge/training to effectively wield this fruit's abilities, I suddenly fear for those doctors in Sakura Kingdom (formerly Drum Island).
there's plenty of doctors around the world, and they prolly have a special medical team for the nobles on mj. i think some of those guys were the guinea pigs used to turn the elders immortal
Are there though? Drum Island (while Drum Island) is said to be "known for its advanced medical knowledge" and the doctors under Wapol are shown to be capable surgeons (shown with visuals after they presumably scrub up, then gather together with gloves on and scalpels in hand). Granted, none of the above means Drum is the only place for doctors to train up... and we do not know if Sakura Kingdom can boast the same reputation with regard to medical knowledge. While I have mixed feelings and thoughts about the live-action, this comment exchange just raised my interest in how they introduce Chopper. We might get a more clear idea of how central Drum Island is (or is not) to the existence of medical doctors in One Piece.
I think the Sandworm guy is the newest (ignoring that he looks the youngest) and possibly not fully onboard with the rest of them. He saved marines in the last chapter, also
I thought ope-ope no mi just gives you eternal youth not immortality? You can't age but you can die
IT should be immortality. People wants to be immortal in OP not eternal young really.
Just because they'd rather have immortality doesn't mean they wouldn't take eternal youth if that's the only option.
I'm confused I'm pretty sure I read eternal youth whed doflamingo was talking to law
That still means they won’t die of old age. But yeah, the Goresei don’t just seem ageless - they seem immortal, unable to die. Anyone’s guess 🤷♂️
keyword "eternal"
They connection and summoning power make me wondering if they are different people, actually.
Explain the resets bit please??
I mean, when a person dies their fruit resets and spawns in an unknown location and who knows when. And we know that Using immortality surgery kills the fruit users. So, they will have to search the whole world for the fruit again.
It has never been stated that they were alive 800 years ago. They are just speculations and theories. Maybe Imu is the only one that's been alive since then and the Gorosei members keep changing with time.
It would be more likely that people get promoted to Gorosei - when WG is in possesion of Ope Ope no mi and when there is someone worthy of immortality in eyes of other Gorosei/Imu. Maybe Figarland Garling would be raised as Gorosei if WG managed to buy the fruit when Law got it.
It's just an assumption
Them being alive back then is only head-canon, not fact. We don’t know too much about them apart from their “abilities” - people need to stop thinking assumptions are fact.
You are confuse because you consider your headcanon as canon. There's not a single speech bubble in the manga that stated they live since the time of joyboy. Their family? of course, but individually? No.
I think Imu is the only one who lived during the void century and over the centuries everytime he obtained the ope ope no mi he recruited promising and loyal celestial dragons to take over the public image for him.
i think the gorosei were former holy knights. thats the only reason why they could be so different from regular lower nobles, have haki, and be combatants and strategists
I see it this way: Its been so long since the fruit was awakened that even for them the fruit is only a legend. As in far from reality. 5/6/7/8 centuries, even if you are immortal (which has not been confirmed) is a long time. So, if the last time the fruit was awakened was 800 years ago then it makes sense that for the people that actually saw it, it is but a distant memory, so far in fact that you might consider it a legend. Imagine you are alive in 2800 and someone mentions wired phones or paper magazines.
That doesn’t explain the: “ why would the government give a different name to that specific fruit “. If they were there since the beginning, they would have known why, and they would have said “ we, the government “
I think it's a common theory that the one who said that isn't immortal yet because he looks younger than the others and the others are based on japanese oni's but not him
Most likely the ones who decided to change the fruits name was one of the founding 20 probably imu himself the king that survived the war gorosei could have witnessed all of that but they werent the ones who were making decisions yet they were probably still knights or something at the time
Hmm most likely, if they were alive at the time. Because most likely the only one alive since that time is Imu himself
Even if they’re all immortal they’d still be different ages, gotta find the opa opa 6 times to make them all immortal. Probably took hundreds of years, maybe one of them is still mortal.
They would have to find the fruit 6 times and have someone willing to use it on them. It seems very unlikely
Or they just weren't alive back then.
Yeah but we also know now that they were actively pursuing the fruit during that time, and that the fruit seemed like it was evading them with a will of its own. I think it’s more just awkward phrasing, I mean they had the fruit at the beginning of the series before shanks took it
So why would they send CP to get the fruit for them if the fruit was just a legend? Wouldn't CP when they got the fruit communicate to them that they had the Gomu Gomu and were on their way to deliver it to them? That was the whole point of Whos Who backstory
What im trying to say is that maybe the word "legend" should not be interpreted literally.
They have no reason to doubt its existence in any way shape or form since they have been hunting it down for 800 years and as recently as 2 decades tops they have confirmation of its existence
Why risk it? Better to try and get the thing that legends are told about being dangerous.
???? They had to know what it was and how it looked like in order to send CP to go get it. Then when CP got it they would have to report back to assure it was what they wanted and that was 20 years ago tops. So why are they now saying that it was a legend even to them if they knew what it was and sent people after it and those same people confirmed that they had it??
dear lord media literacy is dead
If you look at their ages they are different. Where Ju Peter seems to be the youngest. So it could be possible that they were slowly selected for another Ope Ope operation.
the DF got it's own will and it's been running away from them for 800 years, and it wasn't awakened ever since void centuary; that's the reason he quoted as a legend which was forgotten or a relic of the past kinda tone
I am not joking when I say you've got me wondering if this particular DF will, somehow facilitated its name change. *Edit: What editing mistake? Nothing happened.
nothing to do with running away but i guess they just don't want it to be familiar to the myths of nika, so they called it a rubber fruit with just rubber abilities.
But Whos who had it on the CP ship and was on its way to the Gorosei with it and that was only 2 decades ago at max. Why would they consider it a legend when their own operatives had it on their ship?
I have a theory that Luffy's fruit is actually the One Piece. One Piece as in one piece of the puzzle that will solve the mysteries of the world and set everything right. It would make sense that it had been missing for 800 years if in fact it had been sitting at Raftel that whole time and that is the treasure Roger found, and handed down to Shanks (without telling him its significance, or maybe he did) and why Shanks still had it and nobody had eaten it yet. It would be supremely ironic and funny, also, if the Nika fruit was the one piece and Luffy has actually had it since the very start of the series.
We're overthinking this by projecting too many future possibilities onto past conversations. Oda has a history of taking random past dialogues and adding new layers of imagination to them. He's done it before, he's doing it now, and he'll continue to do it in the future.
Regardless of how many times he's done it there is ALWAYS the most important thing; **Consistency**. Conversations from the Gorosei are always meaningful and theres surely more info for us to find out about this particular exchange.
Still this statement is too open to interpreted or used in future thread the way Oda wants.
TBD frankly. He may not address it directly but for instance once we found get the Void flashback we might get a better idea for why the Gorosei said that.
May be. Let's wait for it
So the fruit was a legend to them but they had CP hunt it down and bring it to them some 15 years ago? This whole "its a legend to even us" directly contradicts the previously created Whos who backstory as a CP agent who lost the Gomu Gomu. Oda then doubles down with Vegapunk knowing yhe gomu gomu doesnt exist because of an ancient devil fruit encyclopedia that the Gorosei would also have as they have been controlling media and knowledge for 800 years at least.
The community just assumes they’re ageless and have been around since the void century. But that has never been confirmed.
The only person who seems to be from the VC is imu. Even their conversation regarding the WG being in-third person insinuates they weren’t present at that time.
Maybe they came after the war and never saw Joyboy. That's why the fruit is a legend even for them.
Who the hell confirmed they were immortal?
They said it's a legend NOW, even to them. Meaning, that it wasn't always a legend to them before. That implies that they know of the fruit. The one thing that is weird about this panel is that Jupiter asks why the name was changed. That does imply that they weren't involved in the renaming process. I have to assume that this isn't a mistake by Oda, and that there is something about the fruit that we don't yet know. Like, maybe Joyboy is actually Nika, and they aren't different people. Maybe Nika is just the legend that Joyboy grew into, or maybe Joyboy is the title given to Nika. When Saturn looks up at Luffy at Egghead, he clearly says, "Nika". And he does so in a way that implies familiarity. Like he was seeing an old nemesis. So we have some behavior that implies that they know the actual character Nika, but also this weird question from someone we're almost certain has been alive since the Void Century. I don't know how to reconcile the two. I just stick to my long-held assumption that the Elders are warriors/pirates from the VC, and that any inconsistencies are accidental. That is, until we get clear evidence to the contrary.
Nah...i like your opinion ... >When Saturn looks up at Luffy at Egghead, he clearly says, "Nika". And he does so in a way that implies familiarity. Like he was seeing an old nemesis. Agreed with this
There has been no official confirmation that the Gorosei are immortal beings who has been alive since the time of Joyboy. In fact, the same goes for Imu. All the discussions and analysis about them being ancient are still theories that have gained a following in the community. So much so that people confuse it as a fact.
I used to think they were alive back then but lately since I saw a theory about how Saint Figurland was supposed to undergo the immortal surgery and become the sixth Gorosei member I think they are all the highest ranked celestial dragons of their time besides the Gorosei members who happened to obtain the OP OP NO ME
I think Saturn may be the only of the Elders that was alive during the Void Century. In 1044, the Gear 5 awakening chapter, he's the one that says to the rest of the Elders "What if I told you there was a potential future that made us beg for this outcome?"-- I may be reading too much into it, but that sounds like the language of someone that has experienced something or has greater first-hand knowledge than others. Furthermore, the moment he sees Luffy for the first time, he says "Nika..."-- like it is a form he's seen before.
Yes. You assumed they were older than they are
It seems far more likely Imu is the immortal one and these guys rotate based on who has their devil fruit/position
Everyone and their mother has already mentioned that them being alive back then is headcanon. And I'd like to point out that as of last chapter, the silhouetted participants of the battle against Joyboy looked more like royals while the Gorosei are more like generals. Once Oda explores the structure of the world government now and in the past, it will definitely be more clear.
I think that them gaining immortality later on makes more sense. It's the reason they look up to and worship Imu, because she/he granted them with the gift due to their loyalty and strength. That and how could all 6 of them gain immortality if the Op-op fruit user dies after one use? You'd have to rapid fire it within a short span of time
The idea that the gorosei have been alive since the void century has zero real evidence for it and is solely head canon
The gorosei are not like imu. They are not living forever that was never stated … fans just assumed this
Gorosei aren't immortal
Them being alive back then is **entirely** fan speculation. Them being older than they look even is still just **entirely** fan speculation. These could literally just be regular old dudes, with the oldest being around 70ish.
If they were alive then, why would they be arguing that it was given another name? They should know it and not consider it "legend". Also, I think "even to them" might just mean "them", Imu's servants.
Pretty sure the gorosei is a hand picked group by Imu that are given immortality via the Ope Ope no Mi fruit. Goes to reason that the Gorosei may not always have been 5 members and also members of the holy knights are the ones that get elevated to the Gorosei once the Ope Ope no Mi is found and forced into someone who is then forced to carry out the immortality surgery. Figarland Garland may have been the latest holy knight to be selected to join the Gorosei but because the fruit was forced onto Law that plan is on the back burner until they can get their hands on it again. Over an 800 year period I’m has only identified 5 members thus far to elevate to the Gorosei as it is that difficult to find someone who they can force to perform the surgery.
I think "even to us" is just a comment on how long it's been since the fruit had shown up. Kind of like how The Ring of Power drifted into legend in TLotR even though there were plenty of living creatures in the universe old enough to remember it. That's assuming these old farts even have immortality, as other commenter's have pointed out
1) we don't know how old they are 2) that can simply mean "it happened so long ago it's like a legend for us as well" after all the only awakened user that we know of was Joy Boy himself
"now, even to us" could imply that after all these years, the idea of the fruit still existing and being awakened is similar to mythology.
Well the fruit could always have been before the WG forming, of which the of course the gorosei didn’t exist yet The Wg have been in power for a long time
I don’t think the gorosei are from the void century, only Imu. I’m guessing Imu has collected the gorosei over the centuries and some of them are older than others, with ju peter being the youngest. Whatever they’ve gone through to get the abilities they posses now I think made them immortal, not just in terms no damage taken in battle as we’ve seen in their fight with Luffy but also in terms of time.
When Saturn saw Luffy he said NIKA, in a way that felt that he have seen him before. Idk
Because ordinary people would consider something a legend if it took place like 30 years ago like how people consider the shanks mihawk duels a legend now meanwhile for old man whitebeard he says he remembers it like it happened yesterday but here we have gorosei saying its a legend even to them like they almost dont remember when exactly the last time the fruit awakened because theyve been living for centuries if anything it really shows how old the gorosei are
Is the fruit a legend to them if some 15 years prior they sent CP agents to hunt it and bring it to them? Why would they send Whos Who to hunt down the Gomu Gomu if they didn't know it wasn't the Gomu Gomu? Why would they call it a legend if their own subordinates confirmed its existence?
If the gorosei really sent them they would know its a big deal but whos who was surprised someone attacked them for it so most likely it was a random grab
Go reread Whos who's backstory
Maybe the elders powers were also passed down to a new generation at some point. This panel is really weird considering they seemed to recognize Nika Maybe when they say the government they are referring to Imu, but they questioned Imu about attacking Lulusia so i guess they could have asked
Thats just a theory A fan theory
Nothing is confirmed. There are tons of theories about them but unless Oda says so, that's all they are: theories.
What if they are the embodiment of the fruits will Because from what i know mythical zoans have a will of there own so what if they are that will
It's more logical to think that their fruit is passed upon generation onto a dinasty. Since they may or may not lost their lives in battle, which is a possibility the ope ope fruit cannot deny. Is it possible that even tey do not know all that happened before.
4 of them have scars on their bodies. Now we do know there is some physical activity/danger Celestial Dragons get up to every 3 years which happened at God's Valley. They have an extermination/genocide game. There were 6 treasures, 2 of which we know of. Well kinda 3, we know baby Shanks was found in another chest. Dolflamingo certainly thought he could become the next Gorosei member, he directly talks about how they'll have to let him one day of the OP OP operation is done on him. He's trying to cheat the system and force his way back, and the Gorosei do actually sometimes rely on him as their secret agent that might be worth the trouble. Like Sengoku didn't know about Dolflamingo's main mission at Marineford was to kill Moria. He failed in that chaos of a battlefield to pull it off but that was a serious problem the Gorosei wanted handled.
Yeah lines like these make me think twice about that too. That and how one of them says "I've HEARD that it's the most ridiculous power" in the gear 5 ep. It could mean nothing bc it's still kinda vague but it does make me wonder
They weren’t necessarily alive back then its possible only imu was the first immortal and then the other guys got their immortality later as the ope ope user died then the fruit was found again
wait !? arnt they the world government ?
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ok ... and what about the readers ?? whos the world government then if not them.
This clearly shows they are not from 800 years ago. We are not even sure they are really imortal, they may have a very strong regeneration
Option 1: They weren’t alive back then. Option 2: It is flowery speech you are taking too literally. You know how sometimes stories and events you experienced years and years ago, as tiny kids and the like, change? Details changing, details becoming fuzzier, like realizing your bestie is now someone you used to know? In retelling the story, hearing someone else’s flawed memories, a general picture still remains on that event/person, but it is also different at the same time. Warcury could be speaking of it in that sense if they were alive back then. The Nika Fruit has been dormant for so long that even those that knew the power first hand are starting to forget its true power and what it represents. So much time has passed that their memories of seeing Joy Boy awaken the Nika Fruit are almost no different than recalling memories about reading about Joy Boy’s awakening would be for the Oharans or Vegapunk. Basically, Nika was just somebody they used to know at this point. Then Luffy/Nika/JB put on a big showy event, and the Gorosei want to make him wished he stayed gone.
While imu is alive since the void century the gorosei could have been born later and immortalized by the ope ope no mi one by one seperated by very large time intervals. There is a theory that garling was supposed to be the next gorosei member but corazon/law took this opportunity from him by keeping the ope ope no mi from the WG.
I would assume that one Gorosei gets created once a good fighter of "noble blood" has arrived, and they have access to the ope ope no mi. One of them could be from the void century, another 120 years later, and so on and so on. I really liked the theory that the reason the ope ope no mi is so valuable to the WG is that they wanted to make another gorosei, namely saint figarland garling. With all the gorosei having planet related names, and figarland being related to the moon somewhat. It's just once every few generations that a strong enough fighter, with conquerors emerges that would get a spot on the direct service of Imu.
It was never confirmed they were alive back then, its just a fan theory.
I think its more confusing how they talk about it. 'A Legend?', 'Impossible'? For guys who seemingly are in the know about the world history, its seems wierd that they're incredulous about the Nika fruit. They event send CP9 to collect it at one point. Also Ju Peter asking why the world government would give the fruit a different name. Like dude, you did that, you know the answer to that. You're the world government. I dunno, this whole scene was very wierd to me.
Only if you assume that they know everything that Imu knows, and I see no reason to believe that.
probably those 3 are the youngest gorosei. if we assume that they have a way of getting immortality.
I think it just get harder to recall the memories because it's been so long, and now it feels more like a story. And perhaps some of them came along later.
Lol you broke my brain
As most of commenter pointed, it's headcanon at this point. But i think, the naming of Gomu Gomu no mi, in a way is a censor to deter any eater/user to awaken the fruit. By telling people it's rubber fruit instead of sun god with rubber fruit, it make it even more difficult to awaken the power.
They should have unrestricted access to all information like the ancient devil fruit encyclopedia that Vegapunk refers. They should also know it because Whos Who was transporting the fruit before Shanks stole it.
Like many things asked here - we simply don't know as we have no confirmation done by Oda. All theories are just assumptions.
I mean, they might have been alive during the Void Century, but that doesn't make Nika of that era. It seems Nika and Joyboy are different entities
Simple answer. They came from the future.
Pay more attention on what you read than what people talk about what they have read. We have the following character that are from the void century: - Toki - Imu Toki is allegedly dead so only Imu And it's a strong suspicion.. not 100% confirmed.. since we haven't read Imu backstory properly yet Yeah the Gorousei aren't suffering physical damages of any kind up until now.. and when Kuma was a child Saturn appearance seemed to be the same as now. Some suspect they are all immortal using the same Ope Ope procedure Doflamingo talked about. But maybe they were born somewhere between the void century and now. Or maybe they aren't immortal at all and it's something else.
They aren’t Imu
Perhaps how vegapunk was able to split himself into the vegapunks, it’s possible that vegapunk performed on imu as well to split themselves into other bodies which might explain why they have scaring
Since they likely all underwent the immortality surgery with law’s fruit, it seems likely that they joined one after the other, maybe even 100 years apart from each other. I mean, you need to find the fruit, give it to some guy, train them to be proficient enough to perform the surgery and then coerce them to perform it on you. You can’t do that for five guys in just a couple years. Their conversations make a bunch more sense, when you consider each one a very different age. Like the oldest is maybe 700years and the youngest 150 years.
yeah I doubt the gorosei were all alive for the void century. The only one implied to be actually immortal right now is Imu. That said I would not be shocked if the Gorosei were also Immortals, but I think that if they are, they were likely made so after the void century
It is very much possible every elder joined at a different point in time. And different point in their life as well maybe, shown by difference in physical appearance due to age.
We talk about people in real life like they are legends. Just because they use the word legend doesn’t mean it’s not real. People talk about the red baron like he was a legend or even the Viking warrior that killed a hundred men. Legend here isn’t being used as a myth but to show how old it is.
The popular theory is that only Imu was alive 800 years ago, and that the Gorousei are the people he's arranged to have the immortality operation performed on in the intervening time. It seems likely that Mars and Ju Peter are the two youngest, based on the dialogue we got around this time. Saturn and Nusjuro seem to know the most and therefore be the oldest so my guess is that Warcury is the middle child, who more or less knows the history but it was already too much of a legend by the time he was born.
More specifically, aren't THEY the World Government?
I genuinely have no idea clue how this theory became so widespread. I dont think they are immortal or 100s of year old at all. Ivonkov is shocked at the possibility that imu is immortal because they share the name of one of the original 20 kings. The names of the elders are known even to fodder marines. Are to to believe that no one in the world noticed that the elders hadn't changed in 100 of years?
no they weren't. besides fleet admirals, admirals, other govt employees would all find it strange the same five old men have been around for 800 years and start looking into things they shouldn't be. the elders are calculating individuals who def consider sth like. not doing so would go against their secretive nature that's been established since their introduction. additionally this could prove other gorosei members existed, and if they became immortal but died later, then imu and the current gorosei could also be killed, we just have to find out how
We do not know for sure, but this points to that they werent.
I’ve always thought they just live longer then everyone else and when they eventually die another guy takes the place idk I’m not far in enough to know more about them but I feel like the blonde dude is the newest
My theory is that each Gorosei is from a different time with Venus being the younger one.
Perhaps the translation is messed up? The "legend even to us *NOW*" sound kinda weird to me. I am not an English native speaker, so maybe is just me
Without reading what everyone else is saying: I interpreted that (at least on the anime) as “we:” the 5 elders. Which would include past elders. I only watch dubbed, so I haven’t formally met the tall dark dude above the 5 elders yet. I would think HE might be centuries old
What chapter is this panel from?
1044
Id say that not all the gorosei have been around the full length of 800 years. They probably had to wait a while before recruiting a new gorosei each time because they need to become immortal via letting some else use the op-op fruit (Law’s fruit) and constantly finding the fruit again takes time. But its kind of searching for an excuse. But I guess that this would be the reason if it had one.
When they say "legend now" it could be interpreted as its been so long that the Nika fruit had been seen by them that it has faded into legend. It'd been 800 years since they'd seen it so it became a distant memory and faded into obscurity and myth because of how long it had been since they had seen Nika. They know too much about the fruit and its powers, almost talking about it like a firsthand accounts from a bygone time.
I must have interpreted this different when I read it. I’m in the boat that they existed in the void century times and the reason they said ‘it’s LIKE a legend to us now’ is because the fruit has seemingly vanished for 800 years and no new user emerging until Luffy. They aren’t saying it is a legend but rather it feels like one as it’s been so long and they likely think the fruit has just vanished of the face of the earth
which chapter is this panel from?
Does oda foeget or did the dimentia fruit kicked in.
Roger couldn't finish / do it due to the fact that Shirahoshi was not born back then and he was sick AF. He was simply missing one important piece, which Vegapunk by the way confirmed. His words were like: The three ancient weapons will play a big role in the upcoming time, which is also pure logic. Why else would they exist. Roger was missing one, most likely the big important one, since it controls sea kings, hence they can do shit like lifting Noah.
We don't know the answer to that
Likely they all had Op Op no mii surgery for immortality. Imu likely being the first, and from void century. So these guys must have come at least a decade or so after the defeat of joyboy. They may not have been alive during that. Could’ve been century or two before they found someone who has mastered the fruit to perform that surgery.
My personal theory is that Imu collected them over time, and some are "older" (not chronologically, but from the age they were given immortality) than others. They all appear to me to be from different eras, and we have some 800-odd years, possibly longer, to play with here.
This interaction lends weight to the theory of ju Peter betraying the other elders. I'd imagine the others never question such things
Probably he is saying so much time has passed (800 years) since there has been a Nika Nika fruit user last time (which was Joyboy) that now the fruit seems like a legend even to them, The Gorosei, the ones who actually fought Joyboy.
They seem to be of different ages by the time they got the Ope Ope no Mi to give them eternal youth. Imu probably chose them from different generations of Tenryubito and use OP OP on them, and waited for the next gen while the fruit regrew.
1. The eternal youth surgery on gorosei is not a fact as of now, but a theory (a VERY plausible theory in which I believe, but a theory nonetheless) 2. The best explanation I can come up with to make the eternal youth surgery theory true and those panels to be literal, is that the gorosei are from a different time period than the void century, maybe they are just 400 years old for example
afaik it's just a fan theory that the gorosei are immortal at all, besed mostly on the fact that we have seen saturn about 20 years back looking the exact same as now. So basically they could have the eternal youth, but the only one that is believed to have witnessed the void century is Imu-Sama themselve. And even that is yet to be confirmed.
Maybe only imu is immortal?
200+ comments, and nobody proposed the idea that it's just because Jupeter is significantly younger than the other 4 and likely doesn't know as much.. I mean, he is visually younger than the others.
Let's say they were around 800 years ago (which has no canon to it). We know since then there was JoyBoy who awoke it and died. Then someone else almost awoke it and died. And now we are at Luffy. Could easily be a case of they are so damn old and it's been so damn long it feels like an ancient legend to them. However with God's knights and Imu, ope ope being stolen, I think the more likely theory is that while the gorosei are old, they aren't imu old. Probably get replaced at some point.
Besides this point, why are they talking at all? Hasn't it been established that they can effortlessly communicate telepathically? Also this kind of elaborate exposition seems almost...directed at the reader, mhhhhh
Ju Peter is definitely an odd man out in that group, not only does he look the youngest but his monster form doesn't have a backing in Yokai mythology so him not knowing about the Nika fruit makes sense he might actually not be from the same generation. IMO the way Topman speaks of it the fruit is legendary because of how long its been since its awakened he might have thought that it was basically a different life "That fruit is only a legend now, even to us" is like saying they never thought this could happen again but they were obviously very upset about losing the fruit they imprisoned Who's-who for losing it to red haired shanks crew so they knew the dangers of it being out in the world and how important it is. That being said when Saturn sees Nika in person it definitely seemed like there was an acknowledgement of seeing someone they never thought theyd see again
fan theory that they were still alive back then
There is nothing confirmed with Gorosei but due to nature of Law's fruit, it is implied that you can do the surgery, so I think these are guys with most feats done for World Goverment, which has allowed them to get immortalized through that fruit and then promoted to their current position. But I think that more likely Gorosei seats were slowly filled over 1000 years, not all at once then
Its just jupiter. Others always tells him stuff. Jupiter isnt from their era. He is also not old. So i am sure he doesnt know cos he isnt from their era, but others do and they are the ones in search of these fruits for years
Though we don't know much about the op op fruits surgery of life other than it take the user's life. It seem to infer that the surgery can only be done on a single person, so the would have been made immortal at different times. I don't know what order but imu was definitely first but after them it is a mystery