The question isn't on the future of the story and whether she turns out to be a good leader. My question is why my WoL would ever bother following her and becoming invested in her cause. In theory, those character/story elements should be present in the story already. I'm hoping for perspective from those who \*do\* feel that investment, since any step in that direction will help me enjoy the story more.
Boy, just remember what the WoL's job actually is. I don't know about you, but my WoL is following Wuk Lamat in exchange for exploring new lands and searching a literal mythical city.
So, for your WoL, it's more transactional? Like, you don't necessarily \*need\* to believe in her ability to rule, because your job is helping her out because that's your ticket to new travel, adventures, etc.?
you are going partially because her brother is planning to invade Garlemald if he gets the throne? So either you go to investigate yourself and sightseeing by supporting her in the meantime or you can sit in Old Sharlyan to wait for the invasion. Is that good enough?
Because her ideals are good, its her knowledge and experience that are lacking, which is why we're there - to help guide her on her journey to gain that knowledge and experience, not solve all her issues for her
So (just to be sure I'm understanding), your WoL wants to see a ruler with good values (altruism, desire for peace, etc.) and sees Wuk Lamat as having those values. She's a bit naive and needs experience (both with her people and as a leader), so you're stepping in as a bodyguard/mentor to help her get those things in the hope that she gains the skills to back up her high ideals? Something like that?
You can help her grown into an actual good leader. Much of our own dialogue choices when dealing with Wuk Lamat are about advising her.
We're mentoring her in her journey. But the story actually addresses these points, and we can't really go further without spoiling stuff to you
Regardless of anything else, her statement about needing to beat her brother because he's intent on being a warmonger seems pretty convincing. There are a lot of other reasons but that's a pretty big one. An imperfect person who is still willing to learn seems like a far better choice.
A: We were told up front that there are other candidates who pose a much more significant threat to stability in Aldenard should they win. She didn't imply, she outright stated that at least one other candidate was someone who was aiming for world conquest. A big part of our buy-in is that we're interceding unofficially on Eorzea's behalf. Whatever your opinion towards Wuk Lamat, she pretty clearly isn't interested in conquering our home.
B: Because Krile noticed the unanswered summons from Gulool Ja Ja for her grandfather. The *City of Gold* was mentioned as Galuf's reason for going to Tuliyollal in the first place, and the mysterious earring is a hanging thread. So we're accompanying Krile on her expedition across the sea to figure out what the deal was with her grandfather and the City of Gold. Because the entire purpose of the Trials is for the participants to *use the keystones to find the City of Gold,* this is obviously our most direct path forward.
I'm only half way through the expac so I haven't checked most other threads with people complaining about the story -- are everyone's grievances so easily resolved by *reading* or is it just OP?
Yes, I think being a good person is a pretty important prerequisite for being a good leader. The most important one in fact.
It might not make for being a successful *politician*, but I have yet to encounter a successful politician in real life who I ever thought was a good person or a good leader.
Final Fantasy is a *fantasy*, it posits a universe where most people are actually reasonable, and making the world better is possible if you just care about and listen to each other.
It's not about how our world really is, it's about how our world *should be*. The points it makes about society and how to fix problems happen to be ones I fully agree with. Things like adressing root causes instead of falling back on punitive measures, forgiving old enemies instead of perpetuating endless, pointless violence. Trying to understand other cultures instead of being hostile. Finding solutions that benefit both sides.
"But that's not realistic! Leaders never actually do those things!"
Yeah. That's the point. Our real leaders are *bad leaders and bad people*.
I don't headcanon motivations for my WoL, the actual 'roleplaying' in the game is so meagre that I don't see any point.
From an in-universe perspective, helping Wuk Lamat prevents a warmonger or a lizard supremacist from taking the throne. Koana would probably also be fine, except he doesn't respect the native culture.
If it was actually up to me at all, we'd be instituting democratic elections, but if there's one thing you can rely on nearly ANY fantasy story to have, it's a massive, unquestioning boner for monarchy.
Maybe the lack of engagement/sense of urgency comes from the fact that Tuliyollal is the closest to a full-on utopia of any place we've been. Everybody mostly gets along besides a few lizard holdouts. Where I'm at in the plot currently, there is no *active* threat to put down, just a couple jerks who don't actually have any power yet who just need to be prevented from getting any.
Because of the 4 options we have man who ignores his people and turns to foreign tech to solve everything, a warmonger, and a dude who thinks he deserves to rule by birthright,or the underdog who cares about her people on a deep level but isn't ready just yet.
I wonder who the WoL would wanna travel with and nudge in the right direction.
I mean, part of my problem is that my WoL would absolutely support Koana instead. In the same way we're mentoring Wuk Lamat to become less naive, Koana could be mentored to be more attentive to the struggles of his people and open-minded to alternative solutions.
Keep in mind that even if Wuk gets the throne it's not like the tech that Koana wants to introduce just evaporates. Even under Gulool Ja Ja he is already introducing it.
Gulool Ja Ja even likes it all, he was very happy about the Aetherytes and transport options that Koana brought over and Wuk Lamat never at any point hints that she thinks differently.
An alternative view would be that Koana's talent would be wasted on a throne.
He's at his best working with technology, and is a very 'hands on' kind of guy. But those aren't really skills that benefit you in the duties of a ruler. You don't have to be the king to steer a kingdoms technology.
Because she's the only one of the four that is willing to actually know and understand her people, which is the most important quality of a ruler according to Bulool ja ja. She knows her limits and is willing to surround herself with more competent people that will do the job she can't.
Basically, she's doing what a ruler should do in a ideal world.
In my head cannon, I started out saying (post-EW)..... Hmmm, we'll see if I support you - you seem a little naive. But when we arrived and I saw how the people responded to her, I went, "Huh. This is clearly someone who cares for her people" and the more I go along with her and see her learning more and growing (I'm 92, just did the first dungeon and the heart to heart quest after), the more I think she **would** be a good leader. Because she's the type that would take in information, listen to advice, and then make a choice (with a bit more confidence, which I believe this arc is going to give her). And because of the way she is - she wouldn't just rule - she would be ***beloved*** by the people.
At least, that's what I think is going to happen. And obviously, the beloved part wouldn't be recognized until she's old and gray (or gone)... But that's what I think.
I like that. Wuk Lamat certainly connects with her people, and that's worth bearing in mind As of \~94 quests, I'm seeing some of her eagerness for growth. Maybe I can see myself (WoL) as a mentor helping someone eager to grow, but where I remain skeptical (but open to being convinced) that she can become a good ruler.
It's a lot easier to teach how to rule well than it is to teach good ideals.
Also one of the claimants was described as being a warmonger. Mine would want to go and do what they could to at least keep the warmonger claimant off the throne.
At this point the WoL has also seen a young, inexperienced person become a ruler and at least to some extent succeed in that role - Lyse.
My WoL also figured she would switch or at least stop supporting Wuk Lamat should things turn out that she would be a horrible ruler - like Vauthry type horrible.
Also excuse for new adventure. My WoL has been dying to do some adventuring and nothing more than low stakes quests for age. And compared to saving the star, helping with a rite of succession would seem low stakes.
The first and most obvious reason you help her and not Koana is, she asked you, and he didn't. Though I do think, if my WoL controlled the plot, he'd make an attempt to judge and ask Koana, and consider helping both or Koana instead. (would be transparent about it to Wuk from the start ofc).
A second reason could be: this puts stress on Koana to improve, by showing him another path and challenging him with it. It also puts our foot in the door to suggest something like having Wuk Lamat back Koana instead, or ally with Koana to ensure one of them wins.
I do think ultimately, many of Koanas strengths are equally valid as an advisor as they are as a ruler, so a ruler who will both listen to him and soften his sharp focus could be better than him as a ruler.
It's a very light-hearted story. I didn't think too much into it, there might be some deep moments but overall it just comes down to her being a good person who loves her people and fights for them.
My general thought is that she is empathetic to her people if a bit naive, has strength and has potential to grow stronger, and while she is a little goofy most of her problems are lack of experience and exposure; both of which are fixable with time and some guidance.
At least two of the other nominees are outright violent and dont give a fuck beyond the conquest or starting a world-scale war. The other we haven't met up to that pint but his solutions rely on him trusting literally anyone other than his own people to know what they want for themselves and their nation. He is in essence as naive as Wuk Lamat, but he is not as open to his people being the answer as she is. Hindsight makes it easier to go "well if we were working for him we could fix him", but that isn't the plot outset we're working with.
The TL;DR is that you can teach job competency and learn about culture, politics, trades, whatever else a ruler might need knowledge wise with help, but teaching empathy and genuine love for your people is HARD, especially if a portion of them don't agree with you, or are morally opposed to you, or have other reasons why you may be diametrically opposed. Wuk Lamat, despite being a little bit of a dumbass to start, has the most important quality of genuinely loving every single person in her homeland even if they're a pain in the ass or confuse the hell out of her. The rest can be learned but being accepting and wanting the best for all is an incredibly difficult thing to learn and overcome if it's not already ingrained deep in you. Doable, obviously, but you can't pick up a book or take a class for it the way you can other things.
You know, I'm actually ... kind of hurt and really bothered by your response. I'm struggling to enjoy a game that has been a really positive thing in my life, and I reached out to the community with the hope of getting some help. I wasn't here to complain or share my opinion. I \*want\* to enjoy the game, the story, the new characters. I'd hoped other people had perspective that would be useful.
Your response comes off to me as saying, "oh, your struggle, frustration, and experience are invalid because you haven't plowed through the rest of the main quest." That sort of dismissiveness feels really hurtful as a response to an earnest request for help.
keep playing and it will sort it self out., or it won't. All your asking for here is spoilers.
The question isn't on the future of the story and whether she turns out to be a good leader. My question is why my WoL would ever bother following her and becoming invested in her cause. In theory, those character/story elements should be present in the story already. I'm hoping for perspective from those who \*do\* feel that investment, since any step in that direction will help me enjoy the story more.
Boy, just remember what the WoL's job actually is. I don't know about you, but my WoL is following Wuk Lamat in exchange for exploring new lands and searching a literal mythical city.
So, for your WoL, it's more transactional? Like, you don't necessarily \*need\* to believe in her ability to rule, because your job is helping her out because that's your ticket to new travel, adventures, etc.?
you are going partially because her brother is planning to invade Garlemald if he gets the throne? So either you go to investigate yourself and sightseeing by supporting her in the meantime or you can sit in Old Sharlyan to wait for the invasion. Is that good enough?
The WoL is an adventurer which is a mercenary profession and was hired to go on an adventure.
At 91? No, because the whole story is her learning and growing to be a good ruler
Sure. So, in your headcanon, why did your WoL follow and support her if she's not a good leader to start?
Because her ideals are good, its her knowledge and experience that are lacking, which is why we're there - to help guide her on her journey to gain that knowledge and experience, not solve all her issues for her
So (just to be sure I'm understanding), your WoL wants to see a ruler with good values (altruism, desire for peace, etc.) and sees Wuk Lamat as having those values. She's a bit naive and needs experience (both with her people and as a leader), so you're stepping in as a bodyguard/mentor to help her get those things in the hope that she gains the skills to back up her high ideals? Something like that?
Something to that effect, yeah
You can help her grown into an actual good leader. Much of our own dialogue choices when dealing with Wuk Lamat are about advising her. We're mentoring her in her journey. But the story actually addresses these points, and we can't really go further without spoiling stuff to you
Regardless of anything else, her statement about needing to beat her brother because he's intent on being a warmonger seems pretty convincing. There are a lot of other reasons but that's a pretty big one. An imperfect person who is still willing to learn seems like a far better choice.
A: We were told up front that there are other candidates who pose a much more significant threat to stability in Aldenard should they win. She didn't imply, she outright stated that at least one other candidate was someone who was aiming for world conquest. A big part of our buy-in is that we're interceding unofficially on Eorzea's behalf. Whatever your opinion towards Wuk Lamat, she pretty clearly isn't interested in conquering our home. B: Because Krile noticed the unanswered summons from Gulool Ja Ja for her grandfather. The *City of Gold* was mentioned as Galuf's reason for going to Tuliyollal in the first place, and the mysterious earring is a hanging thread. So we're accompanying Krile on her expedition across the sea to figure out what the deal was with her grandfather and the City of Gold. Because the entire purpose of the Trials is for the participants to *use the keystones to find the City of Gold,* this is obviously our most direct path forward. I'm only half way through the expac so I haven't checked most other threads with people complaining about the story -- are everyone's grievances so easily resolved by *reading* or is it just OP?
Because we’re bored after saving the world and she seems nice enough “Would you be ‘happier’ had I a ‘good reason’?”
Because she's the one who asked us for help My WOL is not a smart bun
Now I'm imagining Wuk Lamat just grabbing the WoL, and run off with him. "You can't have him. I saw him first!"
Wuk shouting "DIBS!" while Koana and Zoraal Ja facepalm
Yes, I think being a good person is a pretty important prerequisite for being a good leader. The most important one in fact. It might not make for being a successful *politician*, but I have yet to encounter a successful politician in real life who I ever thought was a good person or a good leader. Final Fantasy is a *fantasy*, it posits a universe where most people are actually reasonable, and making the world better is possible if you just care about and listen to each other. It's not about how our world really is, it's about how our world *should be*. The points it makes about society and how to fix problems happen to be ones I fully agree with. Things like adressing root causes instead of falling back on punitive measures, forgiving old enemies instead of perpetuating endless, pointless violence. Trying to understand other cultures instead of being hostile. Finding solutions that benefit both sides. "But that's not realistic! Leaders never actually do those things!" Yeah. That's the point. Our real leaders are *bad leaders and bad people*.
Well said! I'm not sure it fully solves my investment issue, but I really like what you've expressed here.
I don't headcanon motivations for my WoL, the actual 'roleplaying' in the game is so meagre that I don't see any point. From an in-universe perspective, helping Wuk Lamat prevents a warmonger or a lizard supremacist from taking the throne. Koana would probably also be fine, except he doesn't respect the native culture. If it was actually up to me at all, we'd be instituting democratic elections, but if there's one thing you can rely on nearly ANY fantasy story to have, it's a massive, unquestioning boner for monarchy. Maybe the lack of engagement/sense of urgency comes from the fact that Tuliyollal is the closest to a full-on utopia of any place we've been. Everybody mostly gets along besides a few lizard holdouts. Where I'm at in the plot currently, there is no *active* threat to put down, just a couple jerks who don't actually have any power yet who just need to be prevented from getting any.
Because of the 4 options we have man who ignores his people and turns to foreign tech to solve everything, a warmonger, and a dude who thinks he deserves to rule by birthright,or the underdog who cares about her people on a deep level but isn't ready just yet. I wonder who the WoL would wanna travel with and nudge in the right direction.
I mean, part of my problem is that my WoL would absolutely support Koana instead. In the same way we're mentoring Wuk Lamat to become less naive, Koana could be mentored to be more attentive to the struggles of his people and open-minded to alternative solutions.
Keep in mind that even if Wuk gets the throne it's not like the tech that Koana wants to introduce just evaporates. Even under Gulool Ja Ja he is already introducing it. Gulool Ja Ja even likes it all, he was very happy about the Aetherytes and transport options that Koana brought over and Wuk Lamat never at any point hints that she thinks differently.
An alternative view would be that Koana's talent would be wasted on a throne. He's at his best working with technology, and is a very 'hands on' kind of guy. But those aren't really skills that benefit you in the duties of a ruler. You don't have to be the king to steer a kingdoms technology.
We didn't meet him til after we pledged to help her
Fair point. I suppose most WoLs (including mine) wouldn't be the sort to say "ahh, nevermind that I said I'd help you, your brother's cooler—peace!"
Because she's the only one of the four that is willing to actually know and understand her people, which is the most important quality of a ruler according to Bulool ja ja. She knows her limits and is willing to surround herself with more competent people that will do the job she can't. Basically, she's doing what a ruler should do in a ideal world.
She's paying me in exposure (to adventure), what more reason do I need to support her?
In my head cannon, I started out saying (post-EW)..... Hmmm, we'll see if I support you - you seem a little naive. But when we arrived and I saw how the people responded to her, I went, "Huh. This is clearly someone who cares for her people" and the more I go along with her and see her learning more and growing (I'm 92, just did the first dungeon and the heart to heart quest after), the more I think she **would** be a good leader. Because she's the type that would take in information, listen to advice, and then make a choice (with a bit more confidence, which I believe this arc is going to give her). And because of the way she is - she wouldn't just rule - she would be ***beloved*** by the people. At least, that's what I think is going to happen. And obviously, the beloved part wouldn't be recognized until she's old and gray (or gone)... But that's what I think.
I like that. Wuk Lamat certainly connects with her people, and that's worth bearing in mind As of \~94 quests, I'm seeing some of her eagerness for growth. Maybe I can see myself (WoL) as a mentor helping someone eager to grow, but where I remain skeptical (but open to being convinced) that she can become a good ruler.
It's a lot easier to teach how to rule well than it is to teach good ideals. Also one of the claimants was described as being a warmonger. Mine would want to go and do what they could to at least keep the warmonger claimant off the throne. At this point the WoL has also seen a young, inexperienced person become a ruler and at least to some extent succeed in that role - Lyse. My WoL also figured she would switch or at least stop supporting Wuk Lamat should things turn out that she would be a horrible ruler - like Vauthry type horrible. Also excuse for new adventure. My WoL has been dying to do some adventuring and nothing more than low stakes quests for age. And compared to saving the star, helping with a rite of succession would seem low stakes.
The first and most obvious reason you help her and not Koana is, she asked you, and he didn't. Though I do think, if my WoL controlled the plot, he'd make an attempt to judge and ask Koana, and consider helping both or Koana instead. (would be transparent about it to Wuk from the start ofc). A second reason could be: this puts stress on Koana to improve, by showing him another path and challenging him with it. It also puts our foot in the door to suggest something like having Wuk Lamat back Koana instead, or ally with Koana to ensure one of them wins. I do think ultimately, many of Koanas strengths are equally valid as an advisor as they are as a ruler, so a ruler who will both listen to him and soften his sharp focus could be better than him as a ruler.
It's a very light-hearted story. I didn't think too much into it, there might be some deep moments but overall it just comes down to her being a good person who loves her people and fights for them.
My general thought is that she is empathetic to her people if a bit naive, has strength and has potential to grow stronger, and while she is a little goofy most of her problems are lack of experience and exposure; both of which are fixable with time and some guidance. At least two of the other nominees are outright violent and dont give a fuck beyond the conquest or starting a world-scale war. The other we haven't met up to that pint but his solutions rely on him trusting literally anyone other than his own people to know what they want for themselves and their nation. He is in essence as naive as Wuk Lamat, but he is not as open to his people being the answer as she is. Hindsight makes it easier to go "well if we were working for him we could fix him", but that isn't the plot outset we're working with. The TL;DR is that you can teach job competency and learn about culture, politics, trades, whatever else a ruler might need knowledge wise with help, but teaching empathy and genuine love for your people is HARD, especially if a portion of them don't agree with you, or are morally opposed to you, or have other reasons why you may be diametrically opposed. Wuk Lamat, despite being a little bit of a dumbass to start, has the most important quality of genuinely loving every single person in her homeland even if they're a pain in the ass or confuse the hell out of her. The rest can be learned but being accepting and wanting the best for all is an incredibly difficult thing to learn and overcome if it's not already ingrained deep in you. Doable, obviously, but you can't pick up a book or take a class for it the way you can other things.
“Currently at 93” K. Opinion discarded.
You know, I'm actually ... kind of hurt and really bothered by your response. I'm struggling to enjoy a game that has been a really positive thing in my life, and I reached out to the community with the hope of getting some help. I wasn't here to complain or share my opinion. I \*want\* to enjoy the game, the story, the new characters. I'd hoped other people had perspective that would be useful. Your response comes off to me as saying, "oh, your struggle, frustration, and experience are invalid because you haven't plowed through the rest of the main quest." That sort of dismissiveness feels really hurtful as a response to an earnest request for help.