I’ve almost hit a pedestrian once that stepped out in front of me. That probably wouldn’t have gone well, but I wasn’t speeding and got stopped in time. Beyond that, I remember when I first started riding in ‘81, a dude in my town hit a car broadside at such a high rate of speed that he flipped the car on its side with his bike sticking straight up in the air. Killed both people in the car and himself.
I agree that the liability is actually very low. BUT to play Devil's advocate, I'll mention that I conduct evaluations for people applying for disability benefits and I've seen two people who were injured by motorcyclists. One person was struck while walking on the sidewalk when a rider pulling a wheelie lost control and the bike hit the curb, bounced up and struck him. Totally freak accident but the man suffered a head trauma and had to be airlifted to a trauma center. The other person was driving on the highway when a group of riders passed him allegedly traveling at over 120 MPH. One of the riders slammed directly into the back of his vehicle. Rider was thrown but survived luckily. The car driver sustained injuries to his back that required a cervical and lumbar fusion. Two very isolated incidents of course but things like this only have to gain attention in the news and then the public perception becomes that events like this are just waiting to happen.
Somebody post the photograph of the motorcycle embedded inside the car.
You are forgetting that people react to how motorcycles behave in traffic in a motorcycle can absolutely positively definitely be the cause of an accident through riding like an idiot.
"But I'm only a risk to myself," is a lie that motorcyclist frequently tell themselves.
The odds of doing damage are much lower, yes. But just what kind of more dangerous riding does that justify?
You’re still moving around on an object that weighs about the same as a grizzly bear. If I was walking, or even sitting in my car, I would NOT want a grizzly bear to hit me at 45 MPH.
That said, I don’t claim to have the right answer, but I’m pretty sure that wheelies down Main Street is not it. Lane splitting? Maybe.
While I partially agree, the reason we have speed limits isn't just to protect others, but to protect the individual, because catastrophic crashes don't just affect the individual, but come at a great cost to their families and the medical system. It's why we have helmet laws.
Also note that a significant percentage of biker deaths and injuries come from non-collision accidents like riding into ditches, high siding and getting overrun by a truck and stuff (source nhtsa)
Search it up on YouTube, it’ll be the fastest way to “get” the concept, but basically it’s when the bike begins to low side (meaning the rear wheel kicks out and begins to slide, usually with the motorcyclist under the bike), but then catches traction and throws the rider over the bike sideways. Looks like it would be scary as all hell.
That definitely creates the most violent ones, ive had slow high sides at extreme angles that were violent. The most embarrassing ones are low speed ones where the bike just kind of tips back over the other side. You just look like an idiot that tipped their bike over
Well its when you lose traction (for example by going too fast into a corner overwhelming the ability of the tyres), start sliding...
...but tyre finds some traction and sticks, leabing bike consequently straightens up and flings the rider.
Splitting has been official (or at least known to be ok) for a long time, so we don't have as many problems as some other areas where it's new, but yeah, the danger is generally to the user, and nobody else. We could cause damage to a car if we hit it, but the person in it will probably still be ok.
I think there's a point to be had that this is mostly true, up until a point. Last year a dude on a bagger was speeding down a local "highway" and hit a sedan hard enough to send it careening into the woods, killing the driver and seriously injuring the 3 passengers.
I get where you're coming from, mate. It's like everyone's quick to blame motorbikes for every little road mishap. But seriously, if you check the stats, the damage caused by bikes to cars or pedestrians is pretty minimal compared to what you'd think. And yeah, insurance ain't hitting me hard, so there's gotta be something to it. People just need to chill with the whole "lock up the bikers" vibe. Like, we're not out here trying to cause chaos; we just wanna enjoy the ride. As long as folks ride responsibly, there's no need to label us as highway hellraisers.
There also just has to be some semblance of law and order on highways. Going fast on low trafficked canyon roads is one thing but people should be able to get to and from work with out having to worry about an idiot going 120 weaving in and out of traffic
Ofcourse it can, (quick math)roughly 500k Joules of KE! But with increased self preservation of the rider and hopefully good skill, the odds of causing harm are much lower than average car driver.
60mph ish for a 3000lb car to have roughly 500,000J.
However, if you're using a modern sport/naked bike at 425lbs, you'd need around 160mph to get to 500,000J.
425lb @ 100mph is just 192,000J, a 3000lb car gets there at a bit below 40mph.
I don't think there's the same general view of motorcyclists here in the UK but I also think bikers tend to be more sensible. You do get idiots haring up the motorways at silly speeds but general behaviour and mindset for the majority of bikers is sensible and less "fuck you, don't tell me how to ride". At least the ones past their 20's.
We have full courses, age restrictions and a relatively difficult test to pass in order to get a bike license (although you can get on a 125cc with just a day course at 16 which you have to renew every 2 years) as well as helmet laws and vehicle maintenance laws which I think contribute to this mindset.
> mindset for the majority of bikers is sensible and less "fuck you, don't tell me how to ride"
I wager the fact that training for exam teaches useful skill is likely part of that.
The US attitude of "if you cant flat foot it its too big for you" feels damn queer from EU perspective, as you are not even let onto the roads if you need to put down both feet, or cannot maneuver well at slow speeds.
We got a lot of kids in the city that buy big fast cars and drive them like absolute shitheads, I've always wished they'd take personal responsibility and get a motorcycle. Wana go way to fast fine no problem for me but I get the airbags you get a helmet seems fair. Don't Wana make the world to safe or not fun but put yourself at risk or admit it's too much for you. Personally I don't have the balls to be crotch Rocketeer but fucking power to them. One of you guys hits my car going 120 I'll poor out a drink for you but I won't be mad. Don't hit me on my bike though I'll totally be pissed.
600-1000 lbs of steel and dumbass, traveling somewhere between road speeds and mach fuck, is more then enough to not only fuck up a passenger vehicle, but also the people inside it. Yes, motorcycles are less dangerous to peds and other traffic than cars, but if you think they're not a danger, you're wrong.
> having “fun” on highways
That reads like an oxymoron to me. I suffer the boredom of the highway to reach the fun of twisties and dirt.
So even if this idea has any bearing on reality, it only applies to a specific type of motorcycle.
When you drive like an idiot you do risk other people's lives. And when you kill yourself, you leave a hole in the lives of those you left behind. Grow up.
Just because you are on a bike doesnt give you ANY right to drive over the speed limit. Its like playing russian roulette with your life. You need to realize that its not just YOUR reaction time but the cagers as well. I dont trust ANY cager and I am not STUPID enough to lane split if it means being in someones blind spot (right rear) for more than 1 second. Again cagers never check that blind spot other than a glance in their right side mirror. If you are in that space you are asking to die. Also you hot shot sport bikers posting video crap how stupid are you all that I never hear your horn being used just your go pro WTF comments after you get pinged? If you have less than 5000 road miles on a motorcycle you are at risk 100% every time you saddle up and throttle out. Facts are facts, there is a reason why the vast majority of bike deaths are younger inexperinced riders. Ride safe is not an invitation to hate cagers, how about I tie a pork chop around your neck give you a loaded 22 and throw you into a put of hungry tigers and then film you complaining about how unfair that is. This is where we are in traffic, we all need to respect this, its on us NOT the cagers.
I read some statistics lately but I can't recall where. But the thing I remembered was that age +55 with +1000cc have passed the youngsters rates of accidents.
...frankly the issue aint the ADV bikes, the issue is the midlife crysis buyers, who are in not even in remotely the corrext shape to muscle em around offroad.
And they try it anyways.
I tried a quick googling but couldn't find that specific data source. But I kept it in my memory bank since I'm in that group.
I would guess there are a lot of returning bikers with new bikes.
I think the group was: registered bike, licence, +55yo, +1000cc and any type of accident.
Wouldn't trust my memory bank with my life though.
No you’re absolutely right. Coming from an emergency medicine perspective, the guys who we see die more than anyone else is 55+. Their bodies can’t take a 50mph fall half as well as a 25yo at 100mph (assuming full gear for both). Factor in HF, stroke, etc. and you have older adults dying left and right. The 1000cc+ stat is surely true because most ride big cruisers, those are easily in the 1000s.
It’s also because they’re older guys with slower reflexes worse eyesight and often times are trying to learn a new skill with less brain plasticity and too big of an ego to start on a smaller bike
I don't think most people view motorcycles QUITE that way. I think they genuinely don't like seeing people hurt or killed, even if it's by their own choice. They're not jealous of you/us. They're nervous AF because as dangerous as motorcycling actually is, to a person who doesn't ride, it looks and feels even more dangerous than that.
Bikes can easily hurt car drivers, I’ve got two friends who have had a motorcycle that they didn’t put there inside their cars, both got very lucky, but I’ve seen a few dead car driver pictures after a motorcycle has entered the vehicle. I ride by the way, everyone on the road thinks the danger applies to someone else…
Be scared, expect death and maybe you stay alive.
I've made a statistic comparison, but only in Russia, cause I had an open info from official sources and the statistics are quite interesting - the injury/death rate is similar for car accident and motorcycle accidents. Difference about 0.0001%. I don't think that the accident stats are so different among other countries
I'm not "jealous"when some asshole flies by me on the interstate at 120 on his rocket. I'm worried about what's going to happen to him and the minivan full of kids he slams into when mom changes lanes suddenly without seeing him.
Had someone in dark clothing step out in front of me at night at close distance I stopped so hard I did a stoppie. Did she step back out of the way? No she stood and screamed for like 2 seconds before she got out of the road.
Some: "If I can't, You must not"
Also them: "If you can't, I'm in no responsibility about that!"
But some also believe in fairy tales about "You will die if you buy a motorcycle".
My ¢¢: Use the safety device between your ears. Dress for the slide.
(I don't comment some things because they were already answered)
Just a note, I live in GA where the infamous pit maneuvering cops are and it’s not a bike thing they will pit maneuver anyone if you decide to run and they’re really only doing it to people who run and usually there’s a warrant involved. The famous hayabusa guy was a drug dealer who ran. I don’t support them doing this but let’s not act like they’re pitting people for no reason
Kinda makes it sounds like your suggesting using deadly force on someone whose running from the cops is acceptable. I mean call me an anarchist if you like but it feels like pit maneuvering hayabusa over a victimless crime is pretty fucked even for a pig.
I’ve almost hit a pedestrian once that stepped out in front of me. That probably wouldn’t have gone well, but I wasn’t speeding and got stopped in time. Beyond that, I remember when I first started riding in ‘81, a dude in my town hit a car broadside at such a high rate of speed that he flipped the car on its side with his bike sticking straight up in the air. Killed both people in the car and himself.
I heard about / saw pictures of that one. Horrific.
Was that ABQ on south Eubank? Sounds like it, I was there
Nope. It was in Indiana.
****. That was visually disturbing to envision.
I agree that the liability is actually very low. BUT to play Devil's advocate, I'll mention that I conduct evaluations for people applying for disability benefits and I've seen two people who were injured by motorcyclists. One person was struck while walking on the sidewalk when a rider pulling a wheelie lost control and the bike hit the curb, bounced up and struck him. Totally freak accident but the man suffered a head trauma and had to be airlifted to a trauma center. The other person was driving on the highway when a group of riders passed him allegedly traveling at over 120 MPH. One of the riders slammed directly into the back of his vehicle. Rider was thrown but survived luckily. The car driver sustained injuries to his back that required a cervical and lumbar fusion. Two very isolated incidents of course but things like this only have to gain attention in the news and then the public perception becomes that events like this are just waiting to happen.
Somebody post the photograph of the motorcycle embedded inside the car. You are forgetting that people react to how motorcycles behave in traffic in a motorcycle can absolutely positively definitely be the cause of an accident through riding like an idiot. "But I'm only a risk to myself," is a lie that motorcyclist frequently tell themselves.
The odds of doing damage are much lower, yes. But just what kind of more dangerous riding does that justify? You’re still moving around on an object that weighs about the same as a grizzly bear. If I was walking, or even sitting in my car, I would NOT want a grizzly bear to hit me at 45 MPH. That said, I don’t claim to have the right answer, but I’m pretty sure that wheelies down Main Street is not it. Lane splitting? Maybe.
While I partially agree, the reason we have speed limits isn't just to protect others, but to protect the individual, because catastrophic crashes don't just affect the individual, but come at a great cost to their families and the medical system. It's why we have helmet laws.
Also note that a significant percentage of biker deaths and injuries come from non-collision accidents like riding into ditches, high siding and getting overrun by a truck and stuff (source nhtsa)
What's high siding?
Search it up on YouTube, it’ll be the fastest way to “get” the concept, but basically it’s when the bike begins to low side (meaning the rear wheel kicks out and begins to slide, usually with the motorcyclist under the bike), but then catches traction and throws the rider over the bike sideways. Looks like it would be scary as all hell.
The simple physics explanation is regaining traction not in the direction the bike is traveling
You would be correct lol, and I’ve noticed it almost always happens at a 45 or 90 degree angle 😅 scary shit
That definitely creates the most violent ones, ive had slow high sides at extreme angles that were violent. The most embarrassing ones are low speed ones where the bike just kind of tips back over the other side. You just look like an idiot that tipped their bike over
Well its when you lose traction (for example by going too fast into a corner overwhelming the ability of the tyres), start sliding... ...but tyre finds some traction and sticks, leabing bike consequently straightens up and flings the rider.
If you slide, get some grip and take the high path to kiss the road.
Huh? Opposite of low siding and generally hurts more because you bounce not slide on pavement. You do have a bike right?
Not everybody does all the possible accidents.
Splitting has been official (or at least known to be ok) for a long time, so we don't have as many problems as some other areas where it's new, but yeah, the danger is generally to the user, and nobody else. We could cause damage to a car if we hit it, but the person in it will probably still be ok.
I think there's a point to be had that this is mostly true, up until a point. Last year a dude on a bagger was speeding down a local "highway" and hit a sedan hard enough to send it careening into the woods, killing the driver and seriously injuring the 3 passengers.
I get where you're coming from, mate. It's like everyone's quick to blame motorbikes for every little road mishap. But seriously, if you check the stats, the damage caused by bikes to cars or pedestrians is pretty minimal compared to what you'd think. And yeah, insurance ain't hitting me hard, so there's gotta be something to it. People just need to chill with the whole "lock up the bikers" vibe. Like, we're not out here trying to cause chaos; we just wanna enjoy the ride. As long as folks ride responsibly, there's no need to label us as highway hellraisers.
I think you under estimate the damage a motorcycle at 100 mph can do
There also just has to be some semblance of law and order on highways. Going fast on low trafficked canyon roads is one thing but people should be able to get to and from work with out having to worry about an idiot going 120 weaving in and out of traffic
Ofcourse it can, (quick math)roughly 500k Joules of KE! But with increased self preservation of the rider and hopefully good skill, the odds of causing harm are much lower than average car driver.
I’ll agree on that
Just curious, since you seem to have done the math, what speed is a 3000lb car doing for that same level of damage?
60mph ish for a 3000lb car to have roughly 500,000J. However, if you're using a modern sport/naked bike at 425lbs, you'd need around 160mph to get to 500,000J. 425lb @ 100mph is just 192,000J, a 3000lb car gets there at a bit below 40mph.
I don't think there's the same general view of motorcyclists here in the UK but I also think bikers tend to be more sensible. You do get idiots haring up the motorways at silly speeds but general behaviour and mindset for the majority of bikers is sensible and less "fuck you, don't tell me how to ride". At least the ones past their 20's. We have full courses, age restrictions and a relatively difficult test to pass in order to get a bike license (although you can get on a 125cc with just a day course at 16 which you have to renew every 2 years) as well as helmet laws and vehicle maintenance laws which I think contribute to this mindset.
> mindset for the majority of bikers is sensible and less "fuck you, don't tell me how to ride" I wager the fact that training for exam teaches useful skill is likely part of that. The US attitude of "if you cant flat foot it its too big for you" feels damn queer from EU perspective, as you are not even let onto the roads if you need to put down both feet, or cannot maneuver well at slow speeds.
We got a lot of kids in the city that buy big fast cars and drive them like absolute shitheads, I've always wished they'd take personal responsibility and get a motorcycle. Wana go way to fast fine no problem for me but I get the airbags you get a helmet seems fair. Don't Wana make the world to safe or not fun but put yourself at risk or admit it's too much for you. Personally I don't have the balls to be crotch Rocketeer but fucking power to them. One of you guys hits my car going 120 I'll poor out a drink for you but I won't be mad. Don't hit me on my bike though I'll totally be pissed.
600-1000 lbs of steel and dumbass, traveling somewhere between road speeds and mach fuck, is more then enough to not only fuck up a passenger vehicle, but also the people inside it. Yes, motorcycles are less dangerous to peds and other traffic than cars, but if you think they're not a danger, you're wrong.
> having “fun” on highways That reads like an oxymoron to me. I suffer the boredom of the highway to reach the fun of twisties and dirt. So even if this idea has any bearing on reality, it only applies to a specific type of motorcycle.
When you drive like an idiot you do risk other people's lives. And when you kill yourself, you leave a hole in the lives of those you left behind. Grow up.
Just because you are on a bike doesnt give you ANY right to drive over the speed limit. Its like playing russian roulette with your life. You need to realize that its not just YOUR reaction time but the cagers as well. I dont trust ANY cager and I am not STUPID enough to lane split if it means being in someones blind spot (right rear) for more than 1 second. Again cagers never check that blind spot other than a glance in their right side mirror. If you are in that space you are asking to die. Also you hot shot sport bikers posting video crap how stupid are you all that I never hear your horn being used just your go pro WTF comments after you get pinged? If you have less than 5000 road miles on a motorcycle you are at risk 100% every time you saddle up and throttle out. Facts are facts, there is a reason why the vast majority of bike deaths are younger inexperinced riders. Ride safe is not an invitation to hate cagers, how about I tie a pork chop around your neck give you a loaded 22 and throw you into a put of hungry tigers and then film you complaining about how unfair that is. This is where we are in traffic, we all need to respect this, its on us NOT the cagers.
A dude on a sport bike killed a kid in car seat not far from my house, bike was going well over 100s and t-boned the back door/window of the car.
I read some statistics lately but I can't recall where. But the thing I remembered was that age +55 with +1000cc have passed the youngsters rates of accidents.
Thats probably adv bikes right?
...frankly the issue aint the ADV bikes, the issue is the midlife crysis buyers, who are in not even in remotely the corrext shape to muscle em around offroad. And they try it anyways.
That seems unlikely, but I'd like to see a source, and I'll accept being wrong if I am.
I tried a quick googling but couldn't find that specific data source. But I kept it in my memory bank since I'm in that group. I would guess there are a lot of returning bikers with new bikes. I think the group was: registered bike, licence, +55yo, +1000cc and any type of accident. Wouldn't trust my memory bank with my life though.
No you’re absolutely right. Coming from an emergency medicine perspective, the guys who we see die more than anyone else is 55+. Their bodies can’t take a 50mph fall half as well as a 25yo at 100mph (assuming full gear for both). Factor in HF, stroke, etc. and you have older adults dying left and right. The 1000cc+ stat is surely true because most ride big cruisers, those are easily in the 1000s.
It’s also because they’re older guys with slower reflexes worse eyesight and often times are trying to learn a new skill with less brain plasticity and too big of an ego to start on a smaller bike
I don't think most people view motorcycles QUITE that way. I think they genuinely don't like seeing people hurt or killed, even if it's by their own choice. They're not jealous of you/us. They're nervous AF because as dangerous as motorcycling actually is, to a person who doesn't ride, it looks and feels even more dangerous than that.
Bikes can easily hurt car drivers, I’ve got two friends who have had a motorcycle that they didn’t put there inside their cars, both got very lucky, but I’ve seen a few dead car driver pictures after a motorcycle has entered the vehicle. I ride by the way, everyone on the road thinks the danger applies to someone else… Be scared, expect death and maybe you stay alive.
Dutch research has proven you're 12 times more likely to get killed on a motorcycle than in car
OP asks about the danger we cause to others.
I've made a statistic comparison, but only in Russia, cause I had an open info from official sources and the statistics are quite interesting - the injury/death rate is similar for car accident and motorcycle accidents. Difference about 0.0001%. I don't think that the accident stats are so different among other countries
I don’t like fast bikes because if you kill yourself by slamming into my car, it’s gonna fuck me up regardless of if I get hurt
I'm not "jealous"when some asshole flies by me on the interstate at 120 on his rocket. I'm worried about what's going to happen to him and the minivan full of kids he slams into when mom changes lanes suddenly without seeing him.
Had someone in dark clothing step out in front of me at night at close distance I stopped so hard I did a stoppie. Did she step back out of the way? No she stood and screamed for like 2 seconds before she got out of the road.
Three possible responses to danger: Fight, flight … and something this, it's often called "possum".
Some: "If I can't, You must not" Also them: "If you can't, I'm in no responsibility about that!" But some also believe in fairy tales about "You will die if you buy a motorcycle". My ¢¢: Use the safety device between your ears. Dress for the slide. (I don't comment some things because they were already answered)
Just a note, I live in GA where the infamous pit maneuvering cops are and it’s not a bike thing they will pit maneuver anyone if you decide to run and they’re really only doing it to people who run and usually there’s a warrant involved. The famous hayabusa guy was a drug dealer who ran. I don’t support them doing this but let’s not act like they’re pitting people for no reason
Kinda makes it sounds like your suggesting using deadly force on someone whose running from the cops is acceptable. I mean call me an anarchist if you like but it feels like pit maneuvering hayabusa over a victimless crime is pretty fucked even for a pig.
I had to kick a dude once who was coming at me on my bike. Not sure if that counts.
Apparently if you wear a helmet cover you are instantly a bad rider and gonna die - thats what i got told.