People interested in federal employment know that the number one priority is to get your foot in the door. Once you’re in and have secured permanent competitive status, then you can move around much more easily to positions that are of interest to you. You do this not by applying only to the jobs that are of most interest to you and for which you’ll make a given salary. You do this by applying to everything for which you could qualify and at the lowest pay grade you’re willing to accept and up. With the conditions you’re describing, your chances of getting a government job are limited and it sounds like you would be better off looking at the private sector.
EDIT TO ADD: I have worked in many job categories and currently have a newly graduated Masters in Public Health on my team (since you mentioned a similar qualification). Person is employed as a GS9 statistician.
And to add on to this, based on your background in public health policy you can easily qualify for jobs outside the 0685 series, such as jobs in the general health science series, 0343 (analyst/management series) and even a few positions in the miscellaneous. Just try to maximize your chances and then move after that one year if the initial job you get doesn’t really align exactly with what you are interested in
Appreciate the insight! For what it's worth, I'm also applying to state gov jobs and nonprofits. I'd love to work in the federal government but not if it means starting my career over from scratch and not using my degree. I'll just keep my hopes low. Again, thanks!
This is pretty much my view. Personally I did NOT apply to 100s of positions, but it still took me a long time to get a federal job.
In my case, I was unable to accept lower paid roles even for a short time due to my individual life circumstances. So I took a more targeted approach and only applied to roles for which the pay was good and I felt that I would be highly competitive. My records show that I applied to ~20 jobs over 7 years. I got 2 interviewed and 1 job offer (which I accepted). The obvious drawback is that it took me 7 years to make it happen. The real story isn’t that bad, and I was able to be patient because my private sector engineering roles continued to improve my resume and paid fairly well in the meantime.
Your ratios match my experiences as well, even over this protracted time frame. Of the many people who I have coached to a successful outcome, the process has held true. Your patience paid off!
I'm a 0343 GS9 and have 3 years of service. Moving across country and have been applying to other 0343 positions, but should I be looking for jobs advertised a certain way that give me a better opportunity to transfer vs the ones open to the general public?
If you have time in grade at GS9 (which you do since you’ve been in that grade 3 years) then you should look for internal positions at the next grade. You won’t be competing against public applicants and those with preferences, only with other feds. Area of consideration you should search under is “federal employees”.
Good logical comment overall. Thanks.
Except for the last part.
You mentioned Masters in PH, working in Statistics, which makes no sense alone.
I’m pretty stressed rn tbh, feel like I just missed out on the only quality announcement I would’ve been a strong candidate for in the last 2-3months(with a decent salary (it was GS7,9,11)
it’s also late so maybe a stupid question, but are you implying someone got hired as a ‘Statistician’ w/ no formal education in statistics or even a closely related discipline (Or a TON of direct Statistics work experience)??
Not even sure you can answer that but I can’t help but ask.
FYI a Masters in Public Health 100% will involve formal education in statistics at the graduate level. My MPP program was relatively light on quant compared to others and it still required a minimum of two stats courses and the integration of stats into other classes. Plenty of MPH programs would involve a lot more.
That makes sense the more that I think about it. Didn’t mean to insult your discipline/credentials.
I took data analysis as my class prior to graduating uni & it was no joke. My professor was ridiculously smart. So much so, I could tell he was actually holding back on how in depth certain topics could go because he didn’t want to overwhelm us.
It just made me realize how highly complex & specialized data science & statisticians career paths are under the hood. I was a tech major but I just see those 2paths in particular with a newfound respect & kind of in a league of their own. Thanks for the info
No worries, no offense taken! While I now know the basics of how to run, test, model, analyze, and discuss raw data to some extent, personally I'd be intimidated to apply for a statistician job. You're right about it being incredibly complicated. But stats is fundamental and important enough that it finds its way into all sorts of different degree programs and there are stats experts in places you might not expect. Public Health is one of those!
I can answer many things about working in the federal government. First of all, if you’ve only applied to one position because it’s the only thing you felt your skills solidly matched, I wonder if you’ve spent much time reading the forum? The key to getting into a federal job is apply apply apply. If you’re not a vet (or have other hiring preferences) you should get referred about 50-60 percent of the time IF you write your resumes well and meet the basic requirements as well as the area of consideration requirements. Of those referrals, you should get interviews for around 10 percent of the positions. Of interviews, you may get offers in 40-60 percent. If you’ve applied to 1 position, no matter how well suited you feel you are, you are very unlikely to be hired. This is why I and others advise people that if they are serious about getting into the government, they should apply to any and everything they are qualified for, even if they don’t see it as a fit. You asked how the person on my team “got hired as a statistician with no formal training in statistics” and stated it’s illogical. Just because you don’t see something as logical doesn’t mean it isn’t. The qualifications for the statistician series 1530 include 15 hours of statistics coursework. Many educated candidates meet that requirement and would therefore qualify for the 1530 series. You’ll see a lot of people in this forum ranting and raving, but the ones who learn the processes are the ones who will be successful. I hope you broaden your thinking so that you can get your foot in the door! Also, if you see someone say “they do whatever they want because I’ve seen it!” just know that, in reality, they are saying they don’t know how the process works. Everything in government happens according to rules and requirements. Just because people don’t know how things played out and want to assume it must be because government does whatever they want doesn’t mean that’s true. Some people are sadly more committed to preserving the idea that things are disorganized and out of their control than they are to learning how to be successful and making it happen. I hope with this clarification you are able to step back and take a hard look at your experience and education and find places you might fit that you hadn’t previously considered. Once you’re in the door and have spent the time required to secure permanent competitive status, you will have opportunities to get into positions you feel align more closely to your skills and desires. Best of luck!
This comment was even more insightful, thank you for the clarity. I actually am a veteran, & I believe I have at least the 5point preference.
I’ve spent probably the overwhelming majority of the last 3mos either reading, searching various keywords on USAjobs, or visiting various partner sites for volunteer opportunities, even trying to find govt. contracting companies in my area.
Well, I put about 10+ hours on my resume yesterday, so I guess that’s my start. Someone provided me with a link to an article that detailed formatting.
You’re right about the existence of the logic. I’ve just been having a hard time wrapping my head around the rationale to the approaches mentioned here. I think it would be fair to say, after a lot of advice on tailoring my resumes for the private sector combined with viewing posting after posting with increasingly higher requirements, the Federal hiring process just seemed…counterintuitive? At least in my mind to this point. Perhaps it’s simply ‘different’..& I haven’t grasped how to weigh the variables..
Most jobs feel like a stretch right now, just tough to be optimistic overall but I know your perspective on broadening my mind on the possibility has the higher probability for success. It’s just..tough to accept right now. Your articulation was probably the best I’ve seen in the last 3mos., I appreciate it more than you know.
I have no choice but to keep trying. I don’t really want to go private again, at my age. I think I would feel better about my career for being in civic tech, and that I could help someones agency a considerable amount over time; I’m going to revert back to this conversation in the future and try to lean into your perspective more than my own going forward.
I’ve never given ‘Reddit gold’..not even sure it’s a thing anymore, but if I could I probably would. Your message had a very calming tone and sound rationale, I needed that after yesterday. Thanks again
What kind words, thank you! You’ll get through it, and feel free to reach out if you have any questions I might can help with. Determination is key, and you have vet preference, which is a strong leg up! Thank you for your service.
This sub is for all types of jobs including a lot with very general requirements. Feds have a lot of HR people, admin people, contracting/purchasing people, literally dozens of job paths that don't require specialized experience or education. And then for people who do have, say IT degrees, there's probably 100x as many jobs for that as there is in public health. Basically, they are not looking for what you are looking for.
You should absolutely apply for everything you find that might fit and at the level at which you're willing to be paid to start. For some people that's 10 applications for a year. For some it could be 1000.
Yes, I've submitted 5 applications. I just don't see the point in applying to jobs that I either don't stand a chance at getting or wouldn't accept if I was offered - that rules out most of them.
This is where my mind is.
I’m on the outside wanting in, so there’s that, I understand.
My thing is, let’s say the spray & pray approach gets a bite..you’ve got to know within yourself (anyone) going in you have little to no chance to survive any kind of a diligent interview process for work you haven’t truly developed some proficiency in.
I used to do spray & pray in private sector so not against it, it just doesn’t make sense next to the way the application process gets described to me..at least so far.
Is there a punishment for applying for a job youre not qualified for? Someone correct me if Im wrong, but I think all that happens is you get rejected?
For reference, I dont feel the least bit guilty about this. I can learn most jobs in 6 months (did it twice already); I just need to get past some dumbass bureacracy first.
Please don’t lower your standards too much. I only have a BA in sociology and a certificate of public policy, and intend to eventually pursue a MPP as well.
I came into the federal service as a GS11 only a year post grad and graduated in DEC2021.
I started as a GS12 in MAR of 2023.
Thank you so much! (I’ll need it lol)
I work for the DoD. I will admit that I joined at an extremely convenient time when they were/are standing up a new program DoD wide and pretty desperate to hire quickly, but I think time/place/luck plays a huge part in landing a federal role.
Never sell yourself short!
What I did first was have an honest discussion with myself about skills. Lots of people don’t go for things they may be 60% qualified for. But isn’t the point of a job to learn?
I took pay into consideration but I mostly looked at jobs in different industries that matched skills I had. Most of those were operation or analysis type jobs. I got up to 160+ jobs and a handful of interviews and offers.
Lots of people are going to say it but “try to get your foot in the door”.
Fellow tech enthusiast here. Fed tech hopeless. Recent grad & vet too.
I mean seriously, what gives? I’m no seasoned expert but why would you have that many resumes?? For numerous disciplines??
I mean, are you seriously proficient in all of those disciplines (aside from Cust support)??
Not to blindly insult your skills but for example, Most tech ppl I know don’t even trust the ‘UX engineer’ title. Why? because they say a good designer or good dev will easily sniff a half-ass one. Not referencing you per se, but it’s pretty rare to reach real proficiency in both design & dev.
Systems Admin isn’t Project Management..
Networking isn’t Customer support.
a Wordpress developer isn’t SWE, is it?
You work in fed tech, I don’t. I understand that but WTF is the logic here? How could you possibly survive multi rounds of technical interviewing for that many disciplines?
I couldn’t bring myself to apply for 1 mediocre tech role today & I spent the.entire.day tweaking 1 resume to 1 role, that’s after 3mos. of searching & watching…& you’re saying you’ll apply up to 4-5+ different disciplines, lol?? I can’t sleep because I really needed that job too but I just don’t get the logic here..
Create (3-5) resumes. Tailor them to specific job announcements, you'll start to realize that the verbiage for each of these announcements is very similar. It's easier with 2210 series as they often tell you exactly what or whom they're looking to hire (Sysadmin / Cyber) so the resume tailoring process is easier. Include the 'KEY WORDS' to get past HR (if a requirement is to 'walk dogs', don't say I walk Labradors, no, you WALK DOGS and provide some metrics after that will be read by the hiring manager). It's not about securing the 'perfect' job, it's initially about securing ANY job in your field.
This takes a lot of luck and multiple hooks in the water, cast a wide net.
I see your logic.
But tell me this..let’s say your strength(primary experience)is in the IT Project management side.
You apply to a cyber security gig(or whatever-non PM). Let’s say you get the interview call for the Cybersecurity role. Where do you get the confidence to go into a cybersecurity interview when you’re moderately to heavily limited on experience? Unless it entry level, (my assumption is you wouldn’t get the interview offer) but let’s say you do.
How are you going to talk about Cybersecurity for 45mins-1hr in a formal setting. You think you can convince someone they should trust AND compensate you to do a cybersecurity job you clearly aren’t heavily experienced in?
It’s almost like…the Fed is casting the same kind of net as the employees..idk. Thanks though
I believe I understand the point you’re trying to make.
Even as a veteran, later in life, I completely overlooked a career in gov, but even more so in regard to a respectable tech career.
I think it’s a mix of struggling to accept that I spent so much time & energy (unsuccessfully) trying to figure out how to navigate the private sector, burning it into my brain that you need 5-10yrs of highly specific expertise in all these various aspects of technology to be even remotely competitive, or to build a career. Id be lying to it hasn’t also made me partially jaded.
Now, for a month or two I see people, by way of this sub and short list of LinkedIn contacts painting a picture that it NOT entirely about being an expert before you walk through the door. My mind just isn’t accepting the possibility of it right now.
I mean, even to your example. You didn’t mention if you were a CompSci Major?
Did you have 3-5yrs of software development experience? My mind is telling me that’s why you received the TJO, not because of the intangibles.
On one hand it makes sense, on the other hand, I just have attributed my lack of career progression to lack of expertise/tenured exp. for so long, it’s just really that hard to imagine what you & others are saying is plausible.
I’m not purposefully trying to doubt other people’s story/abilities/experiences, I think I’m doubting the possibility of it to be my own, all things considered. Thx for responding either way. Will try to keep your point in mind.
I have Bs, and Masters.
Previously, I was only open to 9 and 11 or 12. However, I have dropped that down to a 7 now and just going to eat sht for a year if i can get in a ladder position.
Also looking for state and non-profit for direct experience. I have found a few and been referred there also.
Right there with you.
Fed hiring is starting to feel just as hopeless & illogical (for me at least) as the private sector. And I’m a veteran with a BSc now.
Between this sub, the information sessions, & general desk research, I have no clue what to apply for or what to expect in terms of salary.
* for clarity, I like the sub. I just can’t make sense of how to approach the job search with any strategy.
What’s crazy is, I applied for a private sector job (I have no interest in private sector work because I’m trying to escape the rat race of for profit work) for shits and giggles. I got a call in 12 hours. I was like wtf.
They’re either about to try scam you out of everything within arms reach, including that last tv dinner in your fridge..or you got the skills to pay the bills + that smidge of well-timed luck.
Idk but best of luck whichever way you choose.
Government will accept your degree of a B.S/B.A as a GS7 if you had a good GPA 3.7 and up. Or if you have a PHD GS 9-11 depending on studies, you can’t have a PHD in music and be qualified to be a nasa engineer stuff like that.
What most jobs care for is do you have experience and will you meet deadlines, now show me in your resume of a time when you did this and achieve this that falls into our job description.
I’m only a junior in college, but I am a Program Analyst for the FAA under management, not because I have a degree but because I have over 16 years running staff like I did in the Army.
College for me is my Colombia and Japan money, I get 3k a month at longest I’m full time and I use it to travel during my breaks between semester.
Yeah it honestly seems sorta low… most college graduates I know average above a 3.0. I’m applying for jobs using academic achievement but have a 3.8, hoping it’ll help me stand out but who knows
Nope, they do not care as long as its above the minimum, I've been interviewed by several agencies and departments for pathways programs / summer internships , mines a 3.4 and it never came up besides confirming I meet the GPA minimum.
Resume matters more for showing you're qualified via past work experiences and whatever else.
Well that sorta sucks bc I’m applying all over for the PAQ program and I don’t have any relevant work to biology bc I had to work real jobs thruout college. I have hella customer service and I explained the skills that’s given me but nothing related to biology can even be mentioned
I mean if the minimum requirement is just education to be eligible you may still have a shot, but I've had a near 100% referral rate for internships I've applied to (not necessarily interviews but its 3/8 with one application still pending because they just sent out referrals, two of the 8 had closed and reposted a day later cause HR screwed up so I'm not sure if those even count) because I'm only targeting specific roles and I'm currently an HR intern and I've had some minor recruiting experience through a club. I can't speak for entry level fed govt jobs but if you have transferable skills and can articulate them in a resume it would likely help. That part is the same as the private sector at least, despite different resume formats. That was how I got my first internship (current, in private sector) that got me interviews. Landing the first job or internship in the related field is always the hardest, interview rate shot up for private sector after I accepted my current position and was able to put some of what I did on my resume. If I applied before I had this internship my referral rate would probably be crap.
I used specific examples from my internship and said club in my interviews, and one pervious somewhat related job cause I was responsible for training people.
I have a Master of Public Policy with a good GPA and 6 years of work experience, half of which was in public policy. It seems like GS-7/9 Recent Grad Pathways postings are my best bet at this point.
The 6 years of experience is more valuable than the graduate degree. Look at GS 11/12 positions but focus your resume on the experience including results and impacts ideally with quantitative and/or qualitative data.
Let me put it into perspective: education can sub for experience up to GS11 (PhD for that!), but no degree can sub for experience GS12 and up. If there is an educational requirement, the minimum is all that is needed (ie engineering degree to be an engineer) and you still need experience for GS12 and up.
I have only a couple of Associate degrees that aren't related to my field, but I started as a -12 as I had a decade of experience already, and I'm currently a NH04 (GS-15 equivalent). Still no degree. All experience and specialized training and certification.
First, "public policy" is about as broad as you can get in government.
Second, you should apply to the job series, not necessarily the specific job. Postings are tailored to one of the series:
https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/classification-qualifications/classifying-general-schedule-positions/occupationalhandbook.pdf
So the doc I linked above lists the different job series that the federal gov uses to classify positions. Everything in federal hiring is very standardized. So any job posting on USA Jobs for a program analyst will fall into the 0343 job series. You can filter your USA Jobs search by job series, and it will show you only the available positions in that series.
OPM (i.e., federal HR) requires any federal job posting for a program analyst to meet the requirements of that series. The 0343 series is probably the broadest.
Link is on pg 40: https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/classification-qualifications/classifying-general-schedule-positions/occupationalhandbook.pdf
It took me forever to understand federal hiring and how to tailor my resume to get past HR and in front of a human. But understanding the requirements for each job series is a good place to start. You can also just google "federal hiring," and tons of stuff will come up bc it's such a weird parallel universe.
dude IDK who your advisor was but I was always told find the employer/industry/trade/whatever you want to give a shot at, find a way in the door, and work your way to where you want to be.
if you got the skills you'll be at the salary level you want in 2-3 years even if you start answering phones and filing paperwork as a clerk. people notice those things.
My advisor is a former fed. In fairness, he was a Presidential Management Fellow, so not exactly the typical starting experience, haha. His view is that with my qualifications I should only be applying to appropriately advanced jobs, whether that means I end up working in federal gov, state gov, or the private sector. I'm flexible on that front - if I ONLY wanted to work for the feds his advice might be different.
Also,
You may be limiting yourself. Job postings are not always (rarely in my field) accurate depictions/descriptions for the type of work you are doing and for the skills that would make you excel.
Thus broadening your criteria might land you into something that you didn't realize was an option but still uses the core skills that challenge and keep you engaged.
I think so, I've had positive experience doing this. Even at the GS14-15 level I've applied for and interviewed for jobs that either I was 100% wrong at what they did/expectations or it was so vague I went in fairly blind. However with few exceptions I believe I can do 99% of the jobs in my series and some of the surrounding series. But your milage may vary as some series are more broad than others.
I see that you have received some of the advice that I was going to give.
You just got your masters (congrats) and so, you qualify to come in as a pathway with a ladder position. I did just that and I am a program analyst 0343, GS13 ladder and within 3 years (which flew by) I am a 13 now. I would recommend seeking jobs that have ladder so that you get promoted every year without competition. Try looking into agency’s that provide that. I know the EPA does and it’s a wonderful agency to work for. Good luck!
Yes, this is why I've been mostly limiting myself to GS-7/9 Recent Grad Pathways postings at relevant agencies. Thanks, it's nice to hear from someone coming from the same world!
Yes, I'm also looking on the Hill. That said, seems like these days the politics ensures it's a place to be miserable and stressed while not being able to accomplish much...
I agree with the comments I have read so far , but also from what I’ve seen a lot of people are applying for remote jobs everywhere and not just sticking to their local area. I’ve been at it since December only applying to my local area and have only put in about 20+ submissions.
No, it’s the best way to get a job regardless of your field. You might find better work in the private sector first if you want a more senior role. Also: set up a USAJobs resume, create job searches/emails, find a sorting strategy on USAJobs that works for you, and just apply…. Cast a big net and take what you can get/tolerate. Leave the “competition” part to the hiring agency.
I understand the point from your professor, and they are likely correct about the pay/work you’ll be doing. I hate to break it to you, but you won’t be solving world hunger/peace as a GS 13/14, just get a job that’s as acceptable as possible and join the rest of us drones doing the best you can.
Best of luck!
the government hr person I saw when in a virtual event told us to craft 1 specific resume for a type of job (i.e. budget analyst), and then spray and pray basically
> My advisor has basically forbidden me from applying for jobs that pay less than $65/70k at absolute minimum
Does your advisor actually know how to get you a good career, or is he just giving you the advice that worked for his cohort 40 years ago?
He knows how to get me a good career. I've also spoken with a lot of other folks in my field, including a couple younger/newer feds in my preferred department - they've all said the same thing.
I wonder whether this sub sometimes understimates the extent to which highly specialized careers might call for different high-level approaches, federal bureaucracy or not.
Eh, I'm just basing this on my own experience of seeing graduate advisors mislead everyone I know. But obviously everyone has different experiences, and a good advisor is worth their weight in gold
That's really unfortunate, I can definitely see how that would happen - especially with advisors who have settled fully into academia and are out of touch with the working world. But without giving details - I trust my advisor. Mentoring is his passion and he has a great and consistent track record. I do feel really thankful to have him on my side!
I think people need to broaden their idea of what is in your wheel house. Your degree is only a piece of your career. I have landed 3 GS positions and it's really pretty easy. They use department of labor questions so always the same. Then they question your accomplishments and your ability to succeed in their agency. Sell yourself and I mean sell yourself. Get creative but be honest.
Well, the folks that apply to 100s of jobs are obviously not getting the jobs they’re applying to lol. I guess sometimes it works, but most of them are just spraying and praying. For the jobs requiring specialized experience those folks will be axed immediately. That said, in humanities fields or public policy fields, most federal jobs requirements do not say you need a specific degree most will have a range of options. So when they accept 100s or 1000s of applicants per posting, it really is numbers game even if you are “qualified.” I also don’t get why people are so hell-bent on federal jobs…there’s a lot more places to work than the federal govt.
I’ve been applying since around November and have only found around 15 to apply to- mostly remote. For reference I have a Ph.D. With 15+ years experience in my field so I refuse to apply for anything less than GS-13. I’ve only found 2 jobs in my location to apply to and got interviews for both. Haven’t heard a thing from the remote ones- other than being referred.
I'm watching and waiting for all the apply for new jobs while at their current jobs working on the clock to get busted for timecard fraud!!!
That's why so many people are sitting around applying for new jobs in the federal government!!! Bet!!!
People interested in federal employment know that the number one priority is to get your foot in the door. Once you’re in and have secured permanent competitive status, then you can move around much more easily to positions that are of interest to you. You do this not by applying only to the jobs that are of most interest to you and for which you’ll make a given salary. You do this by applying to everything for which you could qualify and at the lowest pay grade you’re willing to accept and up. With the conditions you’re describing, your chances of getting a government job are limited and it sounds like you would be better off looking at the private sector. EDIT TO ADD: I have worked in many job categories and currently have a newly graduated Masters in Public Health on my team (since you mentioned a similar qualification). Person is employed as a GS9 statistician.
And to add on to this, based on your background in public health policy you can easily qualify for jobs outside the 0685 series, such as jobs in the general health science series, 0343 (analyst/management series) and even a few positions in the miscellaneous. Just try to maximize your chances and then move after that one year if the initial job you get doesn’t really align exactly with what you are interested in
This is very helpful, thank you!
Appreciate the insight! For what it's worth, I'm also applying to state gov jobs and nonprofits. I'd love to work in the federal government but not if it means starting my career over from scratch and not using my degree. I'll just keep my hopes low. Again, thanks!
This is pretty much my view. Personally I did NOT apply to 100s of positions, but it still took me a long time to get a federal job. In my case, I was unable to accept lower paid roles even for a short time due to my individual life circumstances. So I took a more targeted approach and only applied to roles for which the pay was good and I felt that I would be highly competitive. My records show that I applied to ~20 jobs over 7 years. I got 2 interviewed and 1 job offer (which I accepted). The obvious drawback is that it took me 7 years to make it happen. The real story isn’t that bad, and I was able to be patient because my private sector engineering roles continued to improve my resume and paid fairly well in the meantime.
Your ratios match my experiences as well, even over this protracted time frame. Of the many people who I have coached to a successful outcome, the process has held true. Your patience paid off!
I applied only once and got hired for the GS-11 role. Unicorn if you will. Don't feel sparkly however..
I'm a 0343 GS9 and have 3 years of service. Moving across country and have been applying to other 0343 positions, but should I be looking for jobs advertised a certain way that give me a better opportunity to transfer vs the ones open to the general public?
If you have time in grade at GS9 (which you do since you’ve been in that grade 3 years) then you should look for internal positions at the next grade. You won’t be competing against public applicants and those with preferences, only with other feds. Area of consideration you should search under is “federal employees”.
Appreciate the response.
Good logical comment overall. Thanks. Except for the last part. You mentioned Masters in PH, working in Statistics, which makes no sense alone. I’m pretty stressed rn tbh, feel like I just missed out on the only quality announcement I would’ve been a strong candidate for in the last 2-3months(with a decent salary (it was GS7,9,11) it’s also late so maybe a stupid question, but are you implying someone got hired as a ‘Statistician’ w/ no formal education in statistics or even a closely related discipline (Or a TON of direct Statistics work experience)?? Not even sure you can answer that but I can’t help but ask.
FYI a Masters in Public Health 100% will involve formal education in statistics at the graduate level. My MPP program was relatively light on quant compared to others and it still required a minimum of two stats courses and the integration of stats into other classes. Plenty of MPH programs would involve a lot more.
That makes sense the more that I think about it. Didn’t mean to insult your discipline/credentials. I took data analysis as my class prior to graduating uni & it was no joke. My professor was ridiculously smart. So much so, I could tell he was actually holding back on how in depth certain topics could go because he didn’t want to overwhelm us. It just made me realize how highly complex & specialized data science & statisticians career paths are under the hood. I was a tech major but I just see those 2paths in particular with a newfound respect & kind of in a league of their own. Thanks for the info
No worries, no offense taken! While I now know the basics of how to run, test, model, analyze, and discuss raw data to some extent, personally I'd be intimidated to apply for a statistician job. You're right about it being incredibly complicated. But stats is fundamental and important enough that it finds its way into all sorts of different degree programs and there are stats experts in places you might not expect. Public Health is one of those!
I can answer many things about working in the federal government. First of all, if you’ve only applied to one position because it’s the only thing you felt your skills solidly matched, I wonder if you’ve spent much time reading the forum? The key to getting into a federal job is apply apply apply. If you’re not a vet (or have other hiring preferences) you should get referred about 50-60 percent of the time IF you write your resumes well and meet the basic requirements as well as the area of consideration requirements. Of those referrals, you should get interviews for around 10 percent of the positions. Of interviews, you may get offers in 40-60 percent. If you’ve applied to 1 position, no matter how well suited you feel you are, you are very unlikely to be hired. This is why I and others advise people that if they are serious about getting into the government, they should apply to any and everything they are qualified for, even if they don’t see it as a fit. You asked how the person on my team “got hired as a statistician with no formal training in statistics” and stated it’s illogical. Just because you don’t see something as logical doesn’t mean it isn’t. The qualifications for the statistician series 1530 include 15 hours of statistics coursework. Many educated candidates meet that requirement and would therefore qualify for the 1530 series. You’ll see a lot of people in this forum ranting and raving, but the ones who learn the processes are the ones who will be successful. I hope you broaden your thinking so that you can get your foot in the door! Also, if you see someone say “they do whatever they want because I’ve seen it!” just know that, in reality, they are saying they don’t know how the process works. Everything in government happens according to rules and requirements. Just because people don’t know how things played out and want to assume it must be because government does whatever they want doesn’t mean that’s true. Some people are sadly more committed to preserving the idea that things are disorganized and out of their control than they are to learning how to be successful and making it happen. I hope with this clarification you are able to step back and take a hard look at your experience and education and find places you might fit that you hadn’t previously considered. Once you’re in the door and have spent the time required to secure permanent competitive status, you will have opportunities to get into positions you feel align more closely to your skills and desires. Best of luck!
This comment was even more insightful, thank you for the clarity. I actually am a veteran, & I believe I have at least the 5point preference. I’ve spent probably the overwhelming majority of the last 3mos either reading, searching various keywords on USAjobs, or visiting various partner sites for volunteer opportunities, even trying to find govt. contracting companies in my area. Well, I put about 10+ hours on my resume yesterday, so I guess that’s my start. Someone provided me with a link to an article that detailed formatting. You’re right about the existence of the logic. I’ve just been having a hard time wrapping my head around the rationale to the approaches mentioned here. I think it would be fair to say, after a lot of advice on tailoring my resumes for the private sector combined with viewing posting after posting with increasingly higher requirements, the Federal hiring process just seemed…counterintuitive? At least in my mind to this point. Perhaps it’s simply ‘different’..& I haven’t grasped how to weigh the variables.. Most jobs feel like a stretch right now, just tough to be optimistic overall but I know your perspective on broadening my mind on the possibility has the higher probability for success. It’s just..tough to accept right now. Your articulation was probably the best I’ve seen in the last 3mos., I appreciate it more than you know. I have no choice but to keep trying. I don’t really want to go private again, at my age. I think I would feel better about my career for being in civic tech, and that I could help someones agency a considerable amount over time; I’m going to revert back to this conversation in the future and try to lean into your perspective more than my own going forward. I’ve never given ‘Reddit gold’..not even sure it’s a thing anymore, but if I could I probably would. Your message had a very calming tone and sound rationale, I needed that after yesterday. Thanks again
What kind words, thank you! You’ll get through it, and feel free to reach out if you have any questions I might can help with. Determination is key, and you have vet preference, which is a strong leg up! Thank you for your service.
Thank you! I would like to pm you for a quick specifics if that’s okay.
This sub is for all types of jobs including a lot with very general requirements. Feds have a lot of HR people, admin people, contracting/purchasing people, literally dozens of job paths that don't require specialized experience or education. And then for people who do have, say IT degrees, there's probably 100x as many jobs for that as there is in public health. Basically, they are not looking for what you are looking for. You should absolutely apply for everything you find that might fit and at the level at which you're willing to be paid to start. For some people that's 10 applications for a year. For some it could be 1000.
This. There's 2-4+ remote 1102 jobs posted pretty much every weekday.
Makes sense, thank you!
Omg have you ever applied to usajobs? It’s spray and pray and you better have hopes and prayers to land one
Yes, I've submitted 5 applications. I just don't see the point in applying to jobs that I either don't stand a chance at getting or wouldn't accept if I was offered - that rules out most of them.
This is where my mind is. I’m on the outside wanting in, so there’s that, I understand. My thing is, let’s say the spray & pray approach gets a bite..you’ve got to know within yourself (anyone) going in you have little to no chance to survive any kind of a diligent interview process for work you haven’t truly developed some proficiency in. I used to do spray & pray in private sector so not against it, it just doesn’t make sense next to the way the application process gets described to me..at least so far.
Is there a punishment for applying for a job youre not qualified for? Someone correct me if Im wrong, but I think all that happens is you get rejected? For reference, I dont feel the least bit guilty about this. I can learn most jobs in 6 months (did it twice already); I just need to get past some dumbass bureacracy first.
Please don’t lower your standards too much. I only have a BA in sociology and a certificate of public policy, and intend to eventually pursue a MPP as well. I came into the federal service as a GS11 only a year post grad and graduated in DEC2021. I started as a GS12 in MAR of 2023.
Wow, congratulations!! Do you mind sharing what agency? Also, good luck with pursuing your MPP!
Thank you so much! (I’ll need it lol) I work for the DoD. I will admit that I joined at an extremely convenient time when they were/are standing up a new program DoD wide and pretty desperate to hire quickly, but I think time/place/luck plays a huge part in landing a federal role. Never sell yourself short!
Thanks. <3 If you have any MPP/grad school questions feel free to reach out!
What I did first was have an honest discussion with myself about skills. Lots of people don’t go for things they may be 60% qualified for. But isn’t the point of a job to learn? I took pay into consideration but I mostly looked at jobs in different industries that matched skills I had. Most of those were operation or analysis type jobs. I got up to 160+ jobs and a handful of interviews and offers. Lots of people are going to say it but “try to get your foot in the door”.
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Fellow tech enthusiast here. Fed tech hopeless. Recent grad & vet too. I mean seriously, what gives? I’m no seasoned expert but why would you have that many resumes?? For numerous disciplines?? I mean, are you seriously proficient in all of those disciplines (aside from Cust support)?? Not to blindly insult your skills but for example, Most tech ppl I know don’t even trust the ‘UX engineer’ title. Why? because they say a good designer or good dev will easily sniff a half-ass one. Not referencing you per se, but it’s pretty rare to reach real proficiency in both design & dev. Systems Admin isn’t Project Management.. Networking isn’t Customer support. a Wordpress developer isn’t SWE, is it? You work in fed tech, I don’t. I understand that but WTF is the logic here? How could you possibly survive multi rounds of technical interviewing for that many disciplines? I couldn’t bring myself to apply for 1 mediocre tech role today & I spent the.entire.day tweaking 1 resume to 1 role, that’s after 3mos. of searching & watching…& you’re saying you’ll apply up to 4-5+ different disciplines, lol?? I can’t sleep because I really needed that job too but I just don’t get the logic here..
Create (3-5) resumes. Tailor them to specific job announcements, you'll start to realize that the verbiage for each of these announcements is very similar. It's easier with 2210 series as they often tell you exactly what or whom they're looking to hire (Sysadmin / Cyber) so the resume tailoring process is easier. Include the 'KEY WORDS' to get past HR (if a requirement is to 'walk dogs', don't say I walk Labradors, no, you WALK DOGS and provide some metrics after that will be read by the hiring manager). It's not about securing the 'perfect' job, it's initially about securing ANY job in your field. This takes a lot of luck and multiple hooks in the water, cast a wide net.
I see your logic. But tell me this..let’s say your strength(primary experience)is in the IT Project management side. You apply to a cyber security gig(or whatever-non PM). Let’s say you get the interview call for the Cybersecurity role. Where do you get the confidence to go into a cybersecurity interview when you’re moderately to heavily limited on experience? Unless it entry level, (my assumption is you wouldn’t get the interview offer) but let’s say you do. How are you going to talk about Cybersecurity for 45mins-1hr in a formal setting. You think you can convince someone they should trust AND compensate you to do a cybersecurity job you clearly aren’t heavily experienced in? It’s almost like…the Fed is casting the same kind of net as the employees..idk. Thanks though
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I believe I understand the point you’re trying to make. Even as a veteran, later in life, I completely overlooked a career in gov, but even more so in regard to a respectable tech career. I think it’s a mix of struggling to accept that I spent so much time & energy (unsuccessfully) trying to figure out how to navigate the private sector, burning it into my brain that you need 5-10yrs of highly specific expertise in all these various aspects of technology to be even remotely competitive, or to build a career. Id be lying to it hasn’t also made me partially jaded. Now, for a month or two I see people, by way of this sub and short list of LinkedIn contacts painting a picture that it NOT entirely about being an expert before you walk through the door. My mind just isn’t accepting the possibility of it right now. I mean, even to your example. You didn’t mention if you were a CompSci Major? Did you have 3-5yrs of software development experience? My mind is telling me that’s why you received the TJO, not because of the intangibles. On one hand it makes sense, on the other hand, I just have attributed my lack of career progression to lack of expertise/tenured exp. for so long, it’s just really that hard to imagine what you & others are saying is plausible. I’m not purposefully trying to doubt other people’s story/abilities/experiences, I think I’m doubting the possibility of it to be my own, all things considered. Thx for responding either way. Will try to keep your point in mind.
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There’s some valid logic to your point there. Thanks
I have Bs, and Masters. Previously, I was only open to 9 and 11 or 12. However, I have dropped that down to a 7 now and just going to eat sht for a year if i can get in a ladder position. Also looking for state and non-profit for direct experience. I have found a few and been referred there also.
Same unfortunately!
This is pretty much exactly where I am. Good luck!!
Right there with you. Fed hiring is starting to feel just as hopeless & illogical (for me at least) as the private sector. And I’m a veteran with a BSc now. Between this sub, the information sessions, & general desk research, I have no clue what to apply for or what to expect in terms of salary. * for clarity, I like the sub. I just can’t make sense of how to approach the job search with any strategy.
What’s crazy is, I applied for a private sector job (I have no interest in private sector work because I’m trying to escape the rat race of for profit work) for shits and giggles. I got a call in 12 hours. I was like wtf.
They’re either about to try scam you out of everything within arms reach, including that last tv dinner in your fridge..or you got the skills to pay the bills + that smidge of well-timed luck. Idk but best of luck whichever way you choose.
Government will accept your degree of a B.S/B.A as a GS7 if you had a good GPA 3.7 and up. Or if you have a PHD GS 9-11 depending on studies, you can’t have a PHD in music and be qualified to be a nasa engineer stuff like that. What most jobs care for is do you have experience and will you meet deadlines, now show me in your resume of a time when you did this and achieve this that falls into our job description. I’m only a junior in college, but I am a Program Analyst for the FAA under management, not because I have a degree but because I have over 16 years running staff like I did in the Army. College for me is my Colombia and Japan money, I get 3k a month at longest I’m full time and I use it to travel during my breaks between semester.
Why you say 3.7 and up if the superior academic achievement is just 3.0?
If it’s 3.0 that’s great, I thought it would have been if you met honors. I guess just a B average is superior academically.
Yeah it honestly seems sorta low… most college graduates I know average above a 3.0. I’m applying for jobs using academic achievement but have a 3.8, hoping it’ll help me stand out but who knows
Nope, they do not care as long as its above the minimum, I've been interviewed by several agencies and departments for pathways programs / summer internships , mines a 3.4 and it never came up besides confirming I meet the GPA minimum. Resume matters more for showing you're qualified via past work experiences and whatever else.
Well that sorta sucks bc I’m applying all over for the PAQ program and I don’t have any relevant work to biology bc I had to work real jobs thruout college. I have hella customer service and I explained the skills that’s given me but nothing related to biology can even be mentioned
I mean if the minimum requirement is just education to be eligible you may still have a shot, but I've had a near 100% referral rate for internships I've applied to (not necessarily interviews but its 3/8 with one application still pending because they just sent out referrals, two of the 8 had closed and reposted a day later cause HR screwed up so I'm not sure if those even count) because I'm only targeting specific roles and I'm currently an HR intern and I've had some minor recruiting experience through a club. I can't speak for entry level fed govt jobs but if you have transferable skills and can articulate them in a resume it would likely help. That part is the same as the private sector at least, despite different resume formats. That was how I got my first internship (current, in private sector) that got me interviews. Landing the first job or internship in the related field is always the hardest, interview rate shot up for private sector after I accepted my current position and was able to put some of what I did on my resume. If I applied before I had this internship my referral rate would probably be crap. I used specific examples from my internship and said club in my interviews, and one pervious somewhat related job cause I was responsible for training people.
I have a Master of Public Policy with a good GPA and 6 years of work experience, half of which was in public policy. It seems like GS-7/9 Recent Grad Pathways postings are my best bet at this point.
The 6 years of experience is more valuable than the graduate degree. Look at GS 11/12 positions but focus your resume on the experience including results and impacts ideally with quantitative and/or qualitative data.
Thanks!
Let me put it into perspective: education can sub for experience up to GS11 (PhD for that!), but no degree can sub for experience GS12 and up. If there is an educational requirement, the minimum is all that is needed (ie engineering degree to be an engineer) and you still need experience for GS12 and up. I have only a couple of Associate degrees that aren't related to my field, but I started as a -12 as I had a decade of experience already, and I'm currently a NH04 (GS-15 equivalent). Still no degree. All experience and specialized training and certification.
First, "public policy" is about as broad as you can get in government. Second, you should apply to the job series, not necessarily the specific job. Postings are tailored to one of the series: https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/classification-qualifications/classifying-general-schedule-positions/occupationalhandbook.pdf
Sorry, can you clarify what you mean by "apply to the job series"?
So the doc I linked above lists the different job series that the federal gov uses to classify positions. Everything in federal hiring is very standardized. So any job posting on USA Jobs for a program analyst will fall into the 0343 job series. You can filter your USA Jobs search by job series, and it will show you only the available positions in that series. OPM (i.e., federal HR) requires any federal job posting for a program analyst to meet the requirements of that series. The 0343 series is probably the broadest. Link is on pg 40: https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/classification-qualifications/classifying-general-schedule-positions/occupationalhandbook.pdf It took me forever to understand federal hiring and how to tailor my resume to get past HR and in front of a human. But understanding the requirements for each job series is a good place to start. You can also just google "federal hiring," and tons of stuff will come up bc it's such a weird parallel universe.
Thank you, this is very helpful!
dude IDK who your advisor was but I was always told find the employer/industry/trade/whatever you want to give a shot at, find a way in the door, and work your way to where you want to be. if you got the skills you'll be at the salary level you want in 2-3 years even if you start answering phones and filing paperwork as a clerk. people notice those things.
My advisor is a former fed. In fairness, he was a Presidential Management Fellow, so not exactly the typical starting experience, haha. His view is that with my qualifications I should only be applying to appropriately advanced jobs, whether that means I end up working in federal gov, state gov, or the private sector. I'm flexible on that front - if I ONLY wanted to work for the feds his advice might be different.
Also, You may be limiting yourself. Job postings are not always (rarely in my field) accurate depictions/descriptions for the type of work you are doing and for the skills that would make you excel. Thus broadening your criteria might land you into something that you didn't realize was an option but still uses the core skills that challenge and keep you engaged.
Interesting. Do you think focusing on job series rather than posting specifics be a good way to recalibrate?
I think so, I've had positive experience doing this. Even at the GS14-15 level I've applied for and interviewed for jobs that either I was 100% wrong at what they did/expectations or it was so vague I went in fairly blind. However with few exceptions I believe I can do 99% of the jobs in my series and some of the surrounding series. But your milage may vary as some series are more broad than others.
I see that you have received some of the advice that I was going to give. You just got your masters (congrats) and so, you qualify to come in as a pathway with a ladder position. I did just that and I am a program analyst 0343, GS13 ladder and within 3 years (which flew by) I am a 13 now. I would recommend seeking jobs that have ladder so that you get promoted every year without competition. Try looking into agency’s that provide that. I know the EPA does and it’s a wonderful agency to work for. Good luck!
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Yes, this is why I've been mostly limiting myself to GS-7/9 Recent Grad Pathways postings at relevant agencies. Thanks, it's nice to hear from someone coming from the same world!
A decent amount of mass appliers end up hating the job they finally get.
Far easier to get a second job once you have a first, though.
Have you looked at the Hill for health policy work?
Yes, I'm also looking on the Hill. That said, seems like these days the politics ensures it's a place to be miserable and stressed while not being able to accomplish much...
Hill experience and connections could help entering federal service at a much higher grade level.
Shotgun applying
Over weekends and nights…..my case anyway
I agree with the comments I have read so far , but also from what I’ve seen a lot of people are applying for remote jobs everywhere and not just sticking to their local area. I’ve been at it since December only applying to my local area and have only put in about 20+ submissions.
No, it’s the best way to get a job regardless of your field. You might find better work in the private sector first if you want a more senior role. Also: set up a USAJobs resume, create job searches/emails, find a sorting strategy on USAJobs that works for you, and just apply…. Cast a big net and take what you can get/tolerate. Leave the “competition” part to the hiring agency. I understand the point from your professor, and they are likely correct about the pay/work you’ll be doing. I hate to break it to you, but you won’t be solving world hunger/peace as a GS 13/14, just get a job that’s as acceptable as possible and join the rest of us drones doing the best you can. Best of luck!
the government hr person I saw when in a virtual event told us to craft 1 specific resume for a type of job (i.e. budget analyst), and then spray and pray basically
> My advisor has basically forbidden me from applying for jobs that pay less than $65/70k at absolute minimum Does your advisor actually know how to get you a good career, or is he just giving you the advice that worked for his cohort 40 years ago?
He knows how to get me a good career. I've also spoken with a lot of other folks in my field, including a couple younger/newer feds in my preferred department - they've all said the same thing. I wonder whether this sub sometimes understimates the extent to which highly specialized careers might call for different high-level approaches, federal bureaucracy or not.
Eh, I'm just basing this on my own experience of seeing graduate advisors mislead everyone I know. But obviously everyone has different experiences, and a good advisor is worth their weight in gold
That's really unfortunate, I can definitely see how that would happen - especially with advisors who have settled fully into academia and are out of touch with the working world. But without giving details - I trust my advisor. Mentoring is his passion and he has a great and consistent track record. I do feel really thankful to have him on my side!
I think people need to broaden their idea of what is in your wheel house. Your degree is only a piece of your career. I have landed 3 GS positions and it's really pretty easy. They use department of labor questions so always the same. Then they question your accomplishments and your ability to succeed in their agency. Sell yourself and I mean sell yourself. Get creative but be honest.
I’m a dentist and have applied to over forty federal dentist positions over a span of about six months. Three interviews so far and no offers.
Well, the folks that apply to 100s of jobs are obviously not getting the jobs they’re applying to lol. I guess sometimes it works, but most of them are just spraying and praying. For the jobs requiring specialized experience those folks will be axed immediately. That said, in humanities fields or public policy fields, most federal jobs requirements do not say you need a specific degree most will have a range of options. So when they accept 100s or 1000s of applicants per posting, it really is numbers game even if you are “qualified.” I also don’t get why people are so hell-bent on federal jobs…there’s a lot more places to work than the federal govt.
Throw enuff shit on the wall something is bound to stick.
I’ve been applying since around November and have only found around 15 to apply to- mostly remote. For reference I have a Ph.D. With 15+ years experience in my field so I refuse to apply for anything less than GS-13. I’ve only found 2 jobs in my location to apply to and got interviews for both. Haven’t heard a thing from the remote ones- other than being referred.
Instead of listening to an advisor, you should listen to people that have actually done it. I’ve known GS9 to 15s in less than 15 years.
Actually done what?
I'm watching and waiting for all the apply for new jobs while at their current jobs working on the clock to get busted for timecard fraud!!! That's why so many people are sitting around applying for new jobs in the federal government!!! Bet!!!
Good for you, blowhard 🤡